CHURCH OF ENGLAND-BOOK OF MR. WHALLEY, who had a Motion on the Paper, asking for leave to introduce a Bill for altering the Prayer Book, by substituting for the word "priest" the word "minister," said, he would withdraw it, as he understood the Government would not agree to it. And it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned till To-morrow. BILLS OF SALE BILL. On Motion of Mr. WHITWELL, Bill to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Bills of Sale, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WHITWELL, Mr. SAMPSON LLOYD, Mr. NORWOOD, Mr. MONK, and Mr. RIPLEY. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 280.] House adjourned at five minutes before Six o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 9th August, 1877. MINUTES SELECT COMMITTEE Third First Reading - Fraudulent Debtors (192); Fisheries (Dynamite) (Dynamite) (193). Second Reading-County Officers and Courts (Ireland) (177); Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) (180); Police (Expenses) Act Continuance (167); Colonial Stock* (189). Second Reading · Committee negatived-Sheriff Courts (Scotland)* (179); East India Loan mentary measure to the Bankruptcy Bill which had gone down from their Lordships' House, but which, in consequence of the pressure of other Business, had been stopped in its progress through the House of Commons. Of course, he had no idea that any progress beyond the first reading in their Lordships' House could be made this Session with the Bill which he was now about to lay on the Table, but he wished to lay it on the Table in order that it might be considered by the country during the Recess. Bill for the punishment of Fraudulent Debtors, and for other purposes, presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 192.) EDUCATION (SCOTLAND). PETITIONS. THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH presented a large number of Petitions from Bodies and places in Scotland on the subject of the Scotch Education Act. The noble Duke said, that these Petitions were all very similar in tone, and their general prayer was that a permanent Board of Education might be established in Scotland in connection with the Board of Education in London. The Petitioners urged their prayer more especially on the ground that the standard of education in Scotland, in their opinion, had been lowered, instead of raised by the present Code. They did not deny that some special subjects, such as elementary instruction in Botany or other particular branches of science had been introduced; but they did not consider that the higher branches of education had met with that encouragement that they ought to have met with. Scotch gentlemen and farmers complained very bitterly that the present education in parochial schools did not include the higher branches, such as Latin and mathematics. As their Lordships were aware, it was the habit of boys in Scot Third Reading-Prisons (Ireland) (178); De- land to go to the Universities at a much structive Insects* (188), and passed. FRAUDULENT DEBTORS BILL. BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING. earlier age than in England, and formerly they were enabled to acquire in the parochial schools all the instruction in Latin and mathematics which they THE LORD CHANCELLOR rose to required. They attributed the change, present a Bill for the punishment of to a considerable extent, to the fact that Fraudulent Debtors, and to which he it was more profitable to the schoolasked their Lordships to give a first read-master to return a great number of chiling. The Bill was intended to be a supple- dren in the lower branch of purely VOL. CCXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] Y elementary education, than to devote he believed that, on the whole, the their time and attention to the higher education given in the parochial schools subjects of classics and mathematics. of Scotland was not inferior to that This was not the feeling of a few, or of afforded in former years. If he had a Party on one side or the other, but it been aware that the subject was going was almost universal in Scotland, and to be brought forward, and that his instead of becoming lessened, gathered noble Friend was about to enter into strength daily. Indeed, it must be a details, he should have been prepared to pretty strong indication of their feeling give him a more complete answer to his upon the standard of education when they appeal than he could do at the present found among the Petitions sent to their time. He thought that if his noble Lordships so many Petitions from school- Friend would read the Report which had masters in Scotland, who themselves been issued by the Scotch Commission considered that it had been unnecessarily of Council on Education, he would see and unwisely lowered. He hoped his in it figures and information which noble Friend the Lord President would would induce him to modify some of take the matter into consideration. The the statements he had made. He would Government seemed to forget that in remind the noble Duke that the general England elementary education had not subject of education, not alone in Scotbeen furnished to the people till recently; land, but also in England and Ireland, but in Scotland the case was quite dif- was of such magnitude and importance ferent, because there an excellent system that it never could be absent from the of education had been furnished for up- minds of any Government; and Her wards of 200 years in parochial schools. Majesty's present Government had shown It might be said that the children could their desire to deal with the question by go to secondary schools; but in Scotland the Acts they had passed or were still few of them existed, except in large considering. He would assure the noble towns; and the children of parents who Duke that the subject of education in resided in the pastoral and agricultural Scotland would receive the highest condistricts required good instruction quite sideration at their hands. as much as the children who lived in cities or large towns. There were many places where the inhabitants complained most bitterly of the loss they had sustained by not being able to obtain for their children that superior instruction in the parochial schools which they had afforded for the last 250 years, and they prayed their Lordships' serious attention to the subject. This was, indeed, no light matter, and he himself saw the necessity of remedying the evil, and he sincerely hoped that by the few words he had said he would have drawn his noble Friend's attention to it. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON said, that as his noble Friend had so pointedly alluded to him, and asked his attention to the Petitions he had presented, he should be wanting in that respect he felt for him if he did not rise and acknowledge the appeal that he had made. At the same time, while admitting, as he did, the immense importance of the subject to which his noble Friend had alluded, he could not altogether agree with the conclusions at which he had arrived. He knew the question had excited considerable discussion and controversy in Scotland; but The Duke of Buccleuch Petitions ordered to lie on the Table. SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. (The Lord Chancellor.) (NO. 179.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read. THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it affected the constitution of the Sheriff Courts of Scotland. The Bill consisted of two parts-the first of which was applicable to the appointment and tenure of office of the Sheriff Substitute, and the second regarded the extension of the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Courts. With regard to the first part, the Sheriffs Substitute were at present appointed by the Sheriff, by whom they were also removable; but the persons appointed must be certified by the Lord President of the Court of Session and the Lord Justice Clerk as competent for the duties of the office. It was proposed that in future the appointment of the Sheriffs Substitute should be transferred to the Secretary of State, and that he should also be em powered to remove them; but that they | to insert in their Lordships' House. should only be appointed on the condi- Again, there were additions which tion that a report should be made by the might be described as comparatively Lord President and the Lord Justice unimportant additions of detail; and, Clerk of their fitness. As to the Pro- lastly, there were some four or five curators Fiscal, at present they were Amendments of considerable importance. appointed and dismissed at the pleasure To the latter class only he need address of the Sheriff. It was proposed that the himself. The first clause to which he Sheriff should retain the appointment, would call attention was Clause 10. It but subject to the approval of the Secre- provided for what was called the constitary of State, and that they might be tution of the Privy Council. In South removed in the same way as the Sheriffs Africa the Privy Council meant what it Substitute was now removed. With re- meant in other British Colonies-not a gard to the extension of the jurisdiction body constituted as was the Privy Council of the Court, at present the Sheriff in this country, but rather an Executive Courts in Scotland had only jurisdiction Council, or Cabinet of the day. He as to movable, and not with respect to could not help thinking that there must heritable, property. Originally it was have been some misapprehension with intended by this Bill to give them juris-respect to the Amendments made in that diction over heritable property to the annual value of £20; but, while the Bill was passing through the other House, that jurisdiction was extended to £50 or £100 of capital value; but this being a large extension of the jurisdiction, it was coupled with the right on the part of the defender of removing the cause to the Court of Session. Guarded in that way, he thought their Lordships would be of opinion that the measure was one of which they could approve. Motion agreed to: Bill read 2 accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3 To-morrow. SOUTH AFRICA BILL. CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS. Order of the Day for Consideration of Commons Amendments, read. clause. Under the clause as it originally stood, it was provided that the persons who were to be Members of the Privy Council should be from time to time summoned and chosen by the Governor General from among the Members of the Union Parliament-that direction indicating clearly, as he should have thought, that the Members were to be taken from the Parliament and from the majority, and consequently persons who had the confidence of that body. The the Union Parliament" had been struck words "from among the Members of out in the other House. He regretted the omission-not that he thought that it affected the substance of the Bill in the slightest degree; but he would point. out that the Members of the South African Cabinet would be chosen just as the Members of the Canadian Cabinet were chosen-from among those Members of the Parliament who had the confidence of that Parliament; so that the clause as altered did not indicate any demoving that the Commons' Amend-parture from the principle of self-goments in this Bill be considered, said he thought it was desirable he should make a few observations on the long Paper of Amendments which had come up with this Bill from the Commons; though, at the same time, he did not intend to ask their Lordships to disagree with any of them. The Amendments seemed to resolve themselves into several classes. There were omissions from the Bill as it left their Lordships' House. Those omissions were for the most part matters of detail. Then there were additions of certain financial clauses which it had not been thought right Commons' Amendments considered. vernment as understood by Her Majesty's Government, but would be strictly in accordance with those principles. The second point to which he desired to call attention was a very important one in itself. Clause 25 dealt with the constitution of the House of Assembly. To that clause had been added this Proviso "Provided always that in the apportionment of members, and in the determination of the qualifications of electors and members, provision shall be made for the due representation of of the Natives in the Union Parliament and in the Provincial Councils in such a manner as shall be deemed by Her Majesty to be without representation of the Natives, except by danger to the stability of the Government." means of an arrangement come to He thought that in the Bill as it origi- between the Colonial Government and nally stood the Native question, as it was the Chiefs of tribes. He saw no reason called, had been sufficiently provided why the Cape should make any alterafor; but though, no doubt, the subject tion in its present system; and, as was one of great difficulty and delicacy, regarded Natal, he hoped the Natives he himself entertained no apprehension would be gradually raised in the cawith respect to it; and, as the Amend-pacity of exercising the franchise as ment only gave expression to views which he had long held, at the same time that it indicated the greatest confidence in Her Majesty's Government and the Colonial Office, he should be the last person to make any objection to the addition of such a Proviso as this. He thought it most desirable on every ground that, if practicable, the Natives should find some representation in one or both the branches of the Legislature. There had been among them a singular growth of wealth and a singular growth of intelligence; but as between different parts of the country that progress had been very unequal, so that among the Natives there was to be found the greatest barbarism and a high standard of intelligence. Therefore, the question how far you could give effect to the principle of introducing a Native element into the Colonial Legislature would be in this, as in the other Colonies, a question of great difficulty. The precedents were few, and he could not say that they indicated so complete a success as might be desired. The only case which he could call to mind of the latter character was that of New Zealand, where four Members were returned by the whole of the Maories to serve in in Parliament. That had succeeded fairly; but he doubted if the success was more than fair. Then there was the case of Fiji; but there the Natives, instead of forming part of the Legislature had been made, in the persons of their Chiefs, magistrates to administer justice amongst various tribes, and so far as it had gone that experiment had been attended with success. At the Cape the Natives enjoyed the franchise equally with the Colonists; and he said now, as he had said before, that the policy pursued at tho Cape was a wise, humane, and liberal policy, and had produced the fruits it deserved. In Natal, where the Government laboured under exceptional difficulties, the White population being immensely out-numbered by the Natives, there was no The Earl of Carnarvon time went on. He believed, however, that in respect of the Cape, or the Transvaal, or Natal there could not be a rigid rule; the rule must be elastic, so as to be adapted to the different circumstances of the various Colonies at various eras. There must be a gradual exercise of the franchise by the Natives as the Colony itself increased in wealth and intelligence. He, for one, therefore heartily accepted the addition to the clause, inasmuch as it embodied very much his own views and was, moreover, an improvement to the measure. The 45th clause referred to the Provincial Councils. As the Bill stood, it provided that they should consist of one Chamber. The Colonial Office thought that was the wisest course. At the same time the Cape, as was well known, had two Chambers, and he saw no objection, providing the requisite materials could be obtained, why the South Africa Colonies should not have two Chambers in the Provincial Councils. In Clause 61, it was provided that the Queen, by Order in Council, might authorize the Governor of the Cape or of Natal to annex to either of those Colonies the outlying districts. The words "or of Natal" had been struck out of the clause. He had no objection to raise to that Amendment; but he wished to point out that the provision in the clause had been introduced with reference to Griqualand and the Transvaal. As to the former, the question did not arise, because a Bill had already passed through the Cape Legislature for the annexation of Griqualand; but as to the Transvaal, there would be a possibility, if the clause passed as it was, of the annexation of that territory to Natal. Where no representative institutions had been given, he apprehended that the power rested with the Crown of annexing, if it thought it desirable that annexation should take place. He was far from saying that it was desirable to annex the Transvaal to Natal-there were prima facie reasons for which it would seem desirable. Geographically, | omitting the clause. So much for they were connected with each other; the Commons' Amendments to the Bill. their dangers were the same, for the Now, a word as to the Transvaal. Up Zulu kingdom overshadowed both; and, to the date of their latest advices, the state lastly, the population of both were of the of things was gradually settling down. same race. In addition to those reasons The rebellious Chief Secocoeni had subthere would be political advantages in mitted; the Zulu King had retired; the the annexation, both parties consenting; Queen's authority was now received and, provided that consent were signified with hearty enthusiasm in an unbroken before representative institutions were line from one end of the territory to the given to the Transvaal, then he held other; and Sir Theophilus Shepstone that it would be within the power of the was welcomed in every part of the counCrown to annex it to Natal. He did try without one dissentient voice. It not, however, wish to be understood as was only a short time since the annexaexpressing an opinion that in all the tion had been effected; but so far as one circumstances such an annexation would could judge by the events which had be desirable, and he had no objection to occurred since then, the measure apthe adoption of the Amendment made peared to be justified by results. There by the Commons. The other House were in this country at this time two had added to the Bill, after Clause 61, delegates who had come here to lay a Proviso that the powers conferred on before the Government the case of the the Crown with reference to the first defunct Republic; and though he did establishment of the Union, should not not exactly know the sources of their be exercised after the 1st of August, authority, he had thought it right to 1882-which Proviso limited the opera- listen to whatever arguments they could tion of the Bill to five years. The Bill put forward. He told them frankly, on itself was a permissive Bill. Very great the part of the Government, that so far powers, he acknowledged, were given as any reversal of policy it was idle to to the Crown under the Bill; and when speak about that; but in respect of all the proposal was made to him by a right questions of detail bearing on the happihon. Gentleman that at the end of five ness and prosperity of the Transvaal, he years Parliament should have an oppor- would be glad to hear them and give tunity of re-considering the whole ques- weight to anything they might say. tion, he frankly confessed his concur- And he was bound to say that they had rence in the proposal. Then in the hitherto received what he had stated in Commons, Clause 4 of the Bill had been the most reasonable spirit, and he had omitted. It provided that in the event great hopes that satisfactory relations of the admission into the Union of the might arise in consequence of those comOrange Free State or the South African munications. But he wished further to Republic, all persons at the time resi- say that he had not received a single dent and enjoying the rights of citizen- Memorial or Petition from any part of ship within the State and Republic the Transvaal objecting to the annexarespectively, and not being already tion, or praying for a reversal of that British subjects, should be declared policy. One Petition of that kind had naturalized subjects of the Queen. The come to the Colonial Office, but it was Under Secretary for the Colonies had from a Dutch population who lived in consented to the omission of that clause, the Cape Colony and at a distance of because as all those resident within the 1,000 miles from the Transvaal. He Province would become ipso facto British thought it was rather hard that a popusubjects; it was thought that serious lation living at such a distance from the objections might be raised by foreigners Transvaal, and enjoying the advantages against compulsory naturalization. Com- of being under the rule of the British. pulsory naturalization might place Government, should grudge that advanforeigners-Germans and others-in a tage to the people of the Transvaal. It difficulty. Again, hitherto in our Colo- was under those circumstances the Bill nies naturalization was confined to the again came before their Lordships. If Colony itself, and such a clause would he did not think all the Commons' confer a superior kind of naturalization Amendments absolutely necessary, they to that given by a Colony. He thought, did not in the slightest degree interfere therefore, there was good reason for with the principle or the substance of |