the measure.
He believed himself that |
the Bill when passed would go out to
the Cape with greater weight than had
been attached to any former measure
relating to the Colonies. The history
of this Bill was a memorable one. The
Bill would live in the Parliamentary
history of England as much as in the
history of the Colony. It had been
stated that this measure in its passage
through its various stages in the House
of Commons had received little or no
discussion. Speaking from what had
appeared in the ordinary sources of in-
formation, he ventured to say that never
was any assertion less well founded.
He had observed with satisfaction that
a right hon. Gentleman, than whom
there was no one more competent to
speak, from his own knowledge and his
own Ministerial experience, had ex-
pressed his belief that the Bill had been
debated in the House of Commons with
a fulness not known in the case of any
other colonial measure. He would now
express his gratitude to the Opposition
in that and the other House of Parlia-
ment for the frank and hearty support
they had given to the Bill. There had
been great difficulties in the way of the
Bill, and that support was as valued as
it had been valuable. The principle of
the Bill had been affirmed by enormous
majorities, and the Bill went out with
the imprimatur not only of Her Majesty's
Government and of the Leaders on both
sides, but of the maturely-expressed
opinion of the House of Commons. He
begged to move that the Commons'
Amendments be considered and agreed

to.

Motion agreed to.

second time, said, the purpose of the measure was to enable the Indian Government to raise £5,000,000 by way of loan. It was rendered necessary principally to meet the expenditure occasioned by the Famine; but it did not differ in form from ordinary Bills of the same kind, except that in it power was taken by the Government of India to follow the precedent recently initiated by the Imperial Government, to raise part of the loan by the issue of India Exchequer Bonds redeemable from time to time. Language of a desparing character was used sometimes with regard to the finances of India; and therefore he would like to say a few words in order to indicate to their Lordships that the Government of India in raising this loan was not committing an act of great financial imprudence, as had been said, and that there was no reason to entertain any apprehensions in respect of the financial course that Government had of late years pursued. The doubts that had been expressed on that subject appeared to rise principally from the fact that the expenditure of the Indian Government on works expected to be reproductive and its ordinary expenditure were mixed up together. Of course, it was necessary to take both into consideration when you asked what were the prospects of the Indian Government; but they ought to be taken separately, if the precise position of the Indian Government was to be accurately ascertained. Now, if they separated the expense on works expected to be reproductive from the ordinary expense, it would be found that the course pursued by that Government, since the great expenditure of the Indian Mutiny was sur

Amendments considered, and agreed to, mounted, had not only not been a wasteaccordingly.

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE

BILL.

Commons reason for disagreeing to one of the amendments made by the Lords considered (according to order): Lords amendment to which the Commons have disagreed not insisted on.

ful one, but taking the whole 15 years into consideration a fair surplus had been maintained. Taking the accounts of the 15 years from 1861-2 to 1875-6 inclusive, including Famine, but excluding that on Public expenditure on Works Extraordinary from 1867, the aggregate surpluses of the years in surplus amounted to £13,151,411, and the aggregate of deficits in deficit years to £10,209,191, making the balance of surOrder of the Day for the Second Read-sufficient to show that apart from Public plus £2,942,220. He thought that was ing, read.

EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.-(No. 166.) (The Marquess of Salisbury.)

SECOND READING.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in moving that the Bill be now read the

The Earl of Carnarvon

Works there had been nothing wasteful or imprudent in the management of the finances of India, and that there was no

cause for gloomy apprehensions respect- | to the proper amount to be given to the ing that management in future. Then, labourer, or to what was known as "the if the Budget in respect of reproductive Temple wage." Sir Richard Temple works also were examined, it would be maintained that a pound of rice was found that things were not unfavourable. sufficient to enable the labourers to The total capital expenditure on irri- work, and he was very justly of opinion gation works and on State and guaran- that it was not right to give them more teed railways had been £115,800,000, than was absolutely necessary to keep while in 1875-6 the net revenue from them in health. In that view he was railways and irrigation works was supported by the medical authorities in £4,727,219, giving a net return on the Calcutta and opposed by the medical capital expenditure on those under- authorities in Madras; and a somewhat takings of little more than 4 per cent. embittered controversy, turning mainly It was to be remembered, moreover, that upon the number of grains of nitrogen in those works were included not only and carbon necessary to enable an Indian those which were opened and were yielding labourer to work, continued for some revenue, but those, like the Burmah and time. But it must not be supposed from Indus Valley Railways, and the Soane this controversy that any restriction was Canal, which were still under construc- laid on the Madras Government as to tion, and yielding no revenue whatever. the amount of relief. The reports, howHe thought, therefore, that the financial ever, were so persistent, that they at the management of the Indian Government India Office, though they knew that no had been frugal and prudent. He need new restriction had been imposed, were hardly tell their Lordships that the yet inclined to think that some representaprospect was improving, for the new tion had been made on the subject by the works were beginning to yield some Supreme Government; and accordingly revenue, while the old works were yield- he sent this telegram to the Viceroying more. Before he sat down he desired to say a word with respect to the Famine which was the main cause of this loan. The prospects in the Famine districts, as their Lordships might have gathered from the telegrams in the newspapers, were not quite so gloomy as they were about a fortnight ago. A considerable quantity of rain had fallen, and a certain portion of the crops had been saved; but

nevertheless it was to be feared that a considerable and aggravated amount of distress must continue for several months from this time. He was anxious to take this opportunity of removing an impression which had got abroad, and for which he was certain there was no foundation whatever. There was an impression that the Government of India were less eager and less liberal than on former occasions in relieving this terrible distress. There was no ground for that belief. From the very first his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Carnarvon), who was occupying the India Office while he (Lord Salisbury) was away, warned the Indian Government that the utmost care must be taken and no expense must be spared to preserve human life, and the Indian Government cordially accepted the duty. He believed the false impression to which he had alluded had arisen from a controversy which had gone on with respect

"Accounts reach me from many quarters expressing serious fear that insufficiency of relief food on famine works, especially in Madras, is producing diseases of exhaustion, and will end vigilance, and if there is any real cause for apin great mortality. Matter requires extreme prehension it will be better not to place too much restriction on Local Government. Our medical authorities are alarmed by accounts, official and

other."

The reply received was as follows:

vernment in this matter. If the Government of "We have placed no restriction on Local GoMadras were satisfied that the present rate was unduly low, they would doubtless raise it. We have asked Bombay to consider expediency of giving Sunday wage, which is allowed in Madras, but not in Bombay."

Accordingly, within ten days or a fortnight the Madras Government did raise the rate. Therefore there was no ground for thinking that the Government of India prevented the Madras Government from following its humane instincts. It was said that there had been a very great amount of mortality-he had seen a telegram which put it at as high a figure as 500,000. He inquired of the Madras Government as to the accuracy and certainty of that statement, and he received a reply indicating that the estimates of the mortality as yet rested upon somewhat conjectural grounds, but that whatever the mortality was it had arisen,

not from starvation, but from epidemic,
disease-the two diseases of cholera and
small-pox. Everyone knew that the
famine had stimulated both diseases.
The want of rain had lowered all the
wells and diminished the quantity and
purity of the water, and, as everyone
knew, there was nothing which deter-
mined the virulence and spread of cholera
so much as a tainted supply of water.
In the same way with regard to small-
pox. It was a disease which could be
dealt with so long as the people could be
isolated; but it was impossible to isolate
them when they had to be relieved in
vast multitudes. The number relieved
amounted now to 2,300,000, and it was
impossible to isolate them when collected
on relief works and in relief camps. It
necessarily followed, therefore, that
small-pox had its terrible opportunity.
He did not dispute that suffering had
occurred in many cases where relief
came to people whose strength had been
reduced by want-it was not, however,
because relief had been denied; the diffi-
culty was to get people to ask for it-
the officers had to hunt the starving
people and infirm men and women and
children, and induce them to come and
ask for the relief which was ready
to be given to them. In a vast Presi-
dency such as Madras, with a popula-
tion in the famine districts numbering
16,000,000, and a territory, taking
Mysore with Madras, extending over
100,000 square miles-not far from twice
the area of England and Wales-the
agency of relief must be conducted to an
enormous degree by Native means. The
150 covenanted Civil servants could do
very little themselves-they could only
superintend the vast machinery of Na-The Marquess of Salisbury.)
tives. The Government had been obliged
to employ the Native village headmen to
hunt out these poor people; but, unfor-
tunately, as Sir Richard Temple had
lamented again and again, they were
hardly equal to their opportunities and
duties. Those headmen were appointed
in Madras upon the hereditary prin-
ciple, but it had not answered well.
They were perfectly capable of doing
their ordinary duties with efficiency and
success, but they had not acted up to
the expectations formed of them in the
early period of the famine. They had
hardly appreciated the responsibility,
the weight and the necessity of the duties
cast upon them; and the fact must be
The Marquess of Salisbury

admitted that in the early part of the
year many persons were not relieved
until their physical strength was con-
siderably depressed, and cholera and
small-pox found them an easy prey. In
the Presidency of Madras there was a
comparatively inactive population. The
difference between them and the popu-
lation of Northern India was seen in the
enormous amount of gratuitous relief
given in the famine-stricken districts of
Madras, for which no work was required.
It was twice as much as that which it
had been found necessary to give in
Behar. In Behar the maximum number
relieved was 2,100,000, against 2,300,000
in Madras, yet in Behar the proportion
of gratuitous relief had been kept at a
comparatively low point, which had not
been possible in Madras. He would
not be doing his duty or acting in ac-
cordance with his own feelings if he did
not say how deeply we were indebted to
the untiring and unsparing exertions of
the officers employed in relieving the
famine. The Viceroy, Sir Philip Wode-
house, the Duke of Buckingham, and
Sir Richard Temple had all devoted
themselves unsparingly to the duty, and
in spite of the ravages of disease they
had done so in the main with signal and
merited success. He wished to add that
the Viceroy had wisely determined to go
himself to the distressed districts, and
no doubt his presence there would ani-
mate the officers and render it more
easy to work the administrative ma-
chinery for the relief of the famine. He
begged to move that the Bill be now
read a second time.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 21."

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK wished to express his deep sympathy with the population suffering, by no fault of their own, from this great calamity. It had fallen on a people loyal, industrious, and patient, charitable to their relations, obedient to the law, grateful to the officers who had to deal with them, and entertaining an affection for the Government which came forward to assist them in time of distress. With regard to the nature of the famine, he would remark that the information presented to the House was not recent, for it extended only to last January; but it was apparent from the Papers themselves, and

from the statement of the noble Mar- | criticism or suggestion. The one object quess the Secretary of State, that the was to prevent loss of life, taking care, calamity was most serious, especially at the same time, to interfere with trade because this was the second year in as little as possible. He did not, howwhich there had been a failure of the ever, observe that the plan of making customary rain. In the month of January advances of money or food to the cultilast the number of persons receiving vators which was found very successful relief in Madras and Bombay exceeded in Bengal had been adopted. He had 1,500,000; 1,250,000 in Madras, and talked in 1873 with a Mahomedan noblemore than 300,000 in Bombay. It was man in Calcutta, and on asking him then expected that when the annual him what measures he would take in the rain fell in April the distress would be event of a famine in the State of which alleviated, and that it would nearly he was Prime Minister, had been told cease in July; but so far from that being that the best plan would be to advance the case, the number of persons now money to the cultivators, who would being relieved was stated by the Secre- return it in good years. Those who had tary of State to exceed 2,000,000. That to deal with an Indian famine were fact, he feared, showed that the famine brought into contact with an enormous was not likely to be soon at an end, and number of small cultivators, especially that grave difficulties would exist in in Madras, where in one district there meeting it for at least some months were 50,000 occupiers of less than 5 more. It was remarkable that in times acres, and in another 80,000 holding of drought there often happened a second less than 10. The State stood in the failure of rain, which greatly intensified place of a landlord to these men, and it the danger. Thus in 1874, the rain ne- was very important to help them as cessary to secure the rice crop in Bengal, much as possible. He would also sugwhich should have fallen in August, did gest that the Secretary of State and the not come till September, and a repetition Government here might assist the Indian of the scarcity of the previous year was Government in providing officers to deal imminent. Remembering the very great with the distress. In 1873, great diffiresponsibilities of a Ruler at that time, culty was caused by the want of proper he felt that the most generous support supervision. On the occurrence of such should be given to all the Indian autho- a calamity the first thing which ought rities, and he knew from personal ex- to be done was to strengthen the admiperience their energy, their ability, and nistrative Staff to the greatest possible their devotion. He was sure that the extent, and he could not but think that Viceroy had rightly determined to visit if the Government required such assisthe distressed districts. He had been tance many officers of the Army in this associated in India with the Duke of country who had been in India and Buckingham, upon whom the most possessed some knowledge of the lanserious responsibility had fallen, and no guage would volunteer for the service: man could be more zealous in the per- most valuable work was done by officers formance of his duties. He thought fo the Army in Bengal during the that the Government of India had done distress of 1873. He was satisfied wisely in sending Sir Richard Temple to from his own experience under somethe spot, for his previous experience in what similar circumstances, that the Bengal must have enabled him to offer noble Marquess fully appreciated the valuable advice and assistance, and in gravity of the situation, and would, to accepting that duty Sir Richard Temple the best of his ability, assist the Gohad given another instance of his high vernment of India, and he merely threw public spirit. He rejoiced that in Bom- out these suggestions for what they were bay the greatest stress of famine was worth. As the Government of India over; the measures taken to meet the would have a grave calamity to contend distress there appeared to have been with, he would suggest that it would be successful, and reflected great credit wise to postpone, at all events, for the upon Sir Philip Wodehouse and the present, certain administrative changes officers of the Bombay Government. So that were contemplated in the Punjab. far as he was informed regarding the He would not discuss their merits now, proceedings of the Government of India, but only observe that so far as he knew he had but little to offer in the way of they were disapproved by all those men

who had long experience of that part of vernment of India. Comparing the India, and that at least some further financial condition of India in the last consideration might well be bestowed two years with the three preceding upon the proposals. The Secretary of years the results were that the surState had not taken advantage, as had plus, excluding Famine charges, of occasionally been done before, of the the three years 1873, 1874, and 1875 present opportunity to make a statement amounted to £6,791,499, or at the rate of the events of the past year in India; of about £2,250,000 a-year. The cost and, therefore, he (Lord Northbrook) of Famine relief in Bengal was would abstain from making any such £6,698,312, which was met out of the general observations. He would only surplus of those three years. In 1876 express his sorrow at the loss which the the surplus fell to £624,800, and in British Government had sustained by 1877, without the new taxes and the the recent death of three eminent men. arrangements with the Provincial GoSir Jung Bahadur, the de facto ruler of vernments, it was estimated at only Nepal, a loyal ally of the Queen who £428,000. This unsatisfactory condition rendered essential services during the of things was mainly occasioned by the Mutiny; Maharaja Romanath Tajore, increased cost of the remittances from the highly respected leader of Hindoo India to England which were required to society in Calcutta, who was always pay the interest on Debt incurred in ready to give his valuable advice and England, and other Home Charges. The assistance to the Government; and Sir price of silver, as against gold, had very Jametsetjee Jeejeebhoy, who filled a greatly fallen in the last three years. somewhat similar position in Bombay. Consequently the loss by exchange had Both these Native gentlemen he (Lord increased from £500,000 in 1874 to Northbrook) was proud to reckon among £1,000,000 in 1875, and to £1,500,000 his personal friends. Turning to the in 1876. He wished to express his enBill before the House, and to the state tire concurrence with the conclusion at of the finances of India, he had been which the Government of India and much interested by the able financial | Her Majesty's Government had arrived, statements which had been made public by Sir John Strachey, the financial Member of Council, which left nothing to be desired in the way of information which could be supplied by the Government of India. The Estimates of the current year, 1877-8, showed that, including the cost of famine relief, there would be a deficit of £621,000. The cost of famine relief was expected to amount to £2,150,000, so that the apparent surplus, if there had been no Famine, was £1,528,000; but Sir John Strachey had correctly pointed out that the effect of Bills like the present one, by which money was raised in England for the service of India, was to diminish the remittances from India to England, and so to bring about a considerable saving in the cost of making those remittances. Making due allowance for this saving, Sir John Strachey calculated that the real surplus this year, if there had been no Famine, would have been £928,000, of which £500,000 was to accrue from new taxes to be imposed, and from the Provincial Governments undertaking certain charges for a less sum than had hitherto been defrayed on that account by the GoThe Earl of Northbrook

not to change the standard of value in
India from silver to gold, or to adopt
certain other proposals which had been
urged upon them. If there were no
question as to the rate of exchange it
would, he thought be right to borrow
money, wherever it could be raised on
the easiest terms; but the operation of
exchange with respect to receipts in
silver in India and payments in gold in
England made it advisable, and it had
been rightly determined by the Secre-
tary of State, that the loans required by
the Government of India should be raised
as much as possible in India in silver, and
that no more than was absolutely neces-
sary should be raised in England in
gold. He wished to ask from the noble
Marquess an explanation of a transac-
tion which took place last year which
appeared to him to be inconsistent with
this principle. The Government of
India reckoned that for the service
of 1876 it was
necessary to raise
£2,640,000 in England; but it ap-
peared from Sir John Strachey's state-
ments that £4,600,000 had been bor-
rowed in England, or £1,960,000 more
than was required. This excess was
partly balanced by the purchase by the