into the matter out there the report was that the Mooney case, from the point of view of the investigator, was not a fair trial, but came mighty near being a frame up. The Mooney bomb is the only one I remember since the old Sternberg murder, for which Hayward, Moyer, and Pettibone were indicted, and they were acquitted by the jury.

Mr. RODENBERG. Harry Orchard confessed and was sent to the penitentiary.

Capt. HALE. Yes, sir; Orchard, and it was on Orchard's testimony that they tried to get the other people, and the jury acquitted, and that in the Haymarket murder case, you will remember after four of the men had been executed and one had committed suicide in jail, Governor Altgeld, of Illinois, pardoned the other three, because he said in his opinion the trial had been a frame up.

Mr. JOHNSON. How about the McNamara cases?

Capt. HALE. I don't know anything about the legal detail, but the McNamaras were not members of the I. W. W., not believers in the overthrow of the Government at all, but were sore at the Times for its championship of the local industrial authorities.

Mr. RODENBERG. You personally have never had any doubt concerning the guilt of the McNamara's or Mooney, have you?

Capt. HALE. I have had a great deal of doubt concerning Mooney, and as to the McNamara's I have no opinion one way or the other. I don't know anything about that case. I wish I had time to look into all of these things.

Mr. RODENBERG. The McNamara's confessed their guilt.

Capt. HALE. I don't remember the details of that case at all. That was before I took an interest in this sort of thing.

Mr. KREIDER. What was the object and the reason for the explosion of bombs when they attempted to take the life of Attorney General Palmer, and others in Philadelphia? What was the object of these people who did this work or placed these bombs? What did they hope to accomplish, anything beyond the death of these individuals? Capt. HALE. You mean the bomb that exploded right here in front of the Attorney General's house?

Mr. KREIDER. Yes; and the bombs that were exploded in Philadelphia at the same time?

Capt. HALE. I don't remember any other bombs.

The CHAIRMAN. The bomb that was sent to ex-Senator Hardwick, of Georgia, and exploded in the hands of the servant girl?

Capt. HALE. Yes; there was a bomb sent to Hardwick's house, and there was one exploded. Was there one that went to the Attorney General also, one of those bombs in the mails?

The CHAIRMAN. No; that was sent by an individual, and the individual was blown up with the explosion of the bomb. Capt. HALE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I am disposed to make some inquiry, in view of some statements that you have made about these cases. Now, that the matter is up, I shall be glad to have you state what you know of the people back of these movements in the use of the bombs?

Mr. KREIDER. And whether they did it of their own personal initiative, or is it the result of having been meeting at secret or public places, or is it the result of a propaganda, a theory, or why do these people do this?

Capt. HALE. In my opinion, it is not the result of propaganda any more than the cases of murder, rape, and other crimes.

Mr. KREIDER. Usually murder is not committed except in the heat of passion, or some revenge, and rape is not committed except

Capt. HALE. Well, murder is committed with knowledge aforethought. That would do for murder all the time, and other crimes. all the time. The bomb crime, whenever it occurs, stands out so conspicuously in the public eye that we think it is occurring all the time. As a matter of fact, you compare the statistics of bomb cases with other cases, there have been extraordinarily few. In my opinion, that is not the result of propaganda, but the result of the personal feeling the personal feeling of revenge and murder on the part of the man who actually does it, like the bomb that was exploded in Judge Nott's house was exploded or left there, in New York City, after those trials of the gunmen.

The gunmen wanted to get even with Judge Nott, who had sent them off. I do not know what enemies the Attorney General may have. At the time that bomb was exploded he had not yet acquired, so far as I know, any enemy among the Reds. He had not started to prosecute the Reds much at that time.

Mr. KREIDER. Is it not your opinion that the bomb to destroy the life and property of Attorney General Palmer was rather against the Government than against Palmer himself, and the bomb that was placed here at the corner of the Senate Chamber-was it not against the form of the Government, rather than upon the Senate of the United States?

Capt. HALE. I can not answer about the bomb placed at the corner of the Senate Chamber, because I have not heard about it.

Mr. RODENBERG. That was the man who subsequently attempted to kill Morgan, and then was arrested and committed suicide in the Tombs.

Capt. HALE. I am afraid at that time my whole attention was occupied with the war.

The CHAIRMAN. Probably five years ago. To refresh your mind with respect to the use of the bomb, I think it was about Christmas a year ago that the bomb was sent to the Hardwick home in Georgia. Capt. HALE. I think that was last May.

The CHAIRMAN. But a number of people were in receipt of letters a few days before that, in remote parts of the country, threatening them with bombs from different sources, but apparently all working to one purpose. This one exploded in the home of ex-Senator Hardwick. I am not sure whether other bombs were taken out of the mail or not. I think that many bombs were found in the mail, addressed to people, at the same time.

Capt. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RODENBERG. You do not believe that is the work of one individual, do you?

The CHAIRMAN. If you thought that was the work of one individual, must not that have been a conspiracy?

Capt. HALE. I think, sir, that it may have been. I think it must have been the work of a conspiracy on the part of some organization-what organization or concern I do not know. It may have been-it was, in my opinion, the work of a radical organization. I

think that one or two bona fide bombs were sent, but I call your attention to the fact that after this lapse of all these months the Attorney General's force of detectives has not run down a single man in connection with that thing. He has not run down anybody who had anything to do with the bomb that was left in front of his own

house.

The CHAIRMAN. That man was tried instantly.

Capt. HALE. Of course, that man who actually came over there was; yes; but I mean with all the powers of investigation, nobody has been turned up, and it is current gossip among newspaper men and such people that some organizations took advantage of the fact that a real bomb had been exploded to plant in the mails a great many bombs which were addressed to various people. There are a great many things that suggest the possibility of that. Of course, it is not unknown at all that the Department of Justice does plant. things from time to time. It is part of the

Mr. Pou. What authority have you for saying that? You say it is not unknown at all that the Department of Justice plants bombs. What have you got to sustain that?

Capt. HALE. I speak advisedly and without any desire to be sensational at all. I can not sustain it without the power of subpoena, and I probably could not sustain it that way, because it would be impossible to run down a man who was guilty of that, and if he were guilty of it he would perjure himself on the stand and deny it, as I have seen the members of the New York bomb squad do, but I point to one or two instances which were recalled to my attention by the newspapers in connection with that. In the first place, the only bomb that went off was in the home of Senator Hardwick. Senator Hardwick was known as a pacifist, and almost every single radical in the country was against the war and was a pacifist. So why should they send a bomb to Senator Hardwick? The reasonable inference seemed to be that that was the work of a private individual, who was sore at Senator Hardwick for some private reason of his own and not because an organization wanted to do it.

Mr. Pou. You do not mean to suggest that that particular bomb was one that was planted by the Department of Justice?

Capt. HALE. No, sir. I said a bona fide bomb went off in Senator Hardwick's house.

Mr. RODENBERG. I do not think your reasoning is correct, Captain, because, if you remember, that bomb had the label of Gimbel Bros. on it.

Capt. HALE. They all did.

Mr. RODENBERG. They all did.

Mr. Pou. I don't want to get away from this proposition. The captain made the statement awhile ago that it was not unknown at all that the Department of Justice

Capt. HALE. I said it was current gossip among some newspaper ·

men.

Mr. Pou. Then you used the words, if I may be pardoned, that it was not unknown. I was struck with your expression, that "it was not unknown." Of course, if you wish to change it, that is up to you, that the Department of Justice plants these bombs. Now, I would like to know what authority you have got?

Capt. HALE. Plants various things.

Mr. Pou. Let us get down to the bomb. That is the most important. Now, what have you got that justifies you in making such a statement as that?

Capt. HALE. Well, I might call your attention, perhaps, to the instructions from the Department of Justice, issued by Mr. W. J. Flynn on August 12, 1919, to all special agents and employees, which is Exhibit No. 5 attached to the Attorney General's letter to the Senate, and this was the last instruction there. It is very short:

"Special agents will constantly keep in mind the necessity of preserving the cover of our confidential informants, and in no case shall they rely upon the testimony of such covered informants during deportation proceedings."

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Now, what that means is: A cover informant is what is known in Europe as agent provacateur," and it is the effort of the Department of Justice to have people who are actually members of their organization, suspected of being dangerous or radical at all, and those agents are naturally zealous. They want to bring in their evidence. They want to get evidence. You are all familiar with the recent charges which have been made, which are to be investigated by the other committee-Senator Moses, Senator Borah, and Senator Knox-in the Russian matter, as to the program of the Communist Party, and in one of the radical organizations in New York, for example, one night some one was putting his papers away, putting them in a certain corner, and the next morning as he got there he found a box of cartridges in that corner, and as no one else had access to the place except members of the organization, it seemed likely to him that that is what had been left. It is a most familiar practice to find revolvers in the pockets of the people who are arrested, who leave revolvers in their bureau drawers, to show up stuff that has been taken from them, and I do not see why such a statement as that is regarded as extraordinary, in view of the beatings-up that have been indulged in by the Department of Justice, and various things- the robbery and tampering with private letters, and so on.

Mr. Pou. Have you nothing more to sustain the statement than what you have already said?

Capt. HALE. I can not testify as to the bombs last May.

Mr. Pou. Then would it not have been better to have left that charge unsaid?

Capt. HALE. I was asked my opinion about it.

Mr. Pou. I am not asking your opinion. Here is what you said

Capt. HALE. I said, in my opinion it was so and so.

Mr. Pou. No; I beg your pardon. You said, if I may be permitted to correct you, and use your own words, as I think I can recollect them, and as everybody else in this room recollects them, that you used the words that it was not unknown that the Department of Justice plants bombs.

Capt. HALE. Not bombs, sir. I said plants all sorts of things.

Mr. Pou. Oh, I beg your pardon. If there is anybody in the room that contradicts the statement and the quotation-can correct the quotation that I have made, I would like for that person to let it be heard, here and now.

Mr. RODEN BERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the reporter read it. (The reporter read the following:)

And it is current gossip among newspaper men and such people that some organizations take advantage of the fact that a real bomb had been exploded, to plant in the mails a great many bombs which were addressed to various people. There are a great many things that suggest the possibility of that. Of course, it is not unknown at all that the Department of Justice does plant things from time to time. It is part of the

Mr. Pou. Not unknown that the Department of Justice does plant things from time to time. Now, have you any other reason for making that charge, other than what you have already stated? Capt. HALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RODENBERG. Have you in mind any specific instance where the Department of Justice ever employed a bomb-used a bomb in order to perhaps catch criminals?

Capt. HALE. No, sir; I have not; but it seems to me very extraordinary that one of those bombs, for example, should be addressed to Frederick Howe. The list of men to whom those bombs were addressed was such a list that could not be drawn up by anybody familiar with the point of view of the radicals in this country. There are too many names on that list against whom no radical had anything to say.

Mr. RODENBERG. Just prior to leaving the Senate, Senator Hardwick made one of the strongest speeches ever made in the Senate, on the freedom of speech. I never could understand the motive for sending that bomb to Hardwick.

Capt. HALE. I can not understand it. I wish the Department of Justice could run those things down and find out how they do occur, because the charge is always laid, of course, by the newspapers that they have something to do with these things, you know. I do not know, it is impossible to say, but when men are forced to run the gauntlet and are loaded into wagons and taken down to the police station and discharged, I feel that people who do that will do certain other things, and when without a search warrant one carries off a great deal of property and breaks up furniture, and so on, I do not feel that that is a legal matter, and when telephone wires are tapped and peace-time conversations taken down definitely, it is not for me to investigate such matters as that, sir. I should welcome the possibility of such an investigation, but I have no time at my disposal. I am too busy defending individual cases.

Mr. CANTRILL. Captain, what would you do with a man like Mooney? Would you free him?

Capt. HALE. Yes; I should, because I read the report of the agents sent out there by President Wilson's suggestion.

Mr. RODENBERG. Did you read the proceedings of the trial, too? Capt. HALE. No; I read the report. If my memory serves me, it was Felix Frankfurter. He is a distinguished graduate of the Harvard Law School, for whose legal opinion I should have the greatest respect in these matters. As I remember at the time, President Wilson sent a recommendation to the governor of California that Mooney be pardoned or his sentence commuted.

Mr. SCHALL. You were about to make some observations on the soldier boys that were shot down in Washington, and some question led you off into another channel.

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