and sit at his palace gate, and there wait without eating themselves, and of consequence without his eating, all they have received a part of their pay; that is the usual way in which all the Asiatic troops are maintained. An allusion has been made to the mutiny which took place in 1775; I believe that to have proceeded from an understanding that the vizier's officers, at the head of troops, were to be dismissed from their employment, and their battalions were to be committed to the charge of Europeans, which I believe actually happened.

Do not you know that on the good government and defence of the province of Oude depends, in a great measure, the security of all the company's possessions in that part of India, and Bengal particularly? I apprehend that if we were to be defeated in Oude, in the extreme part of our possessions, we should be scarcely able to maintain ourselves in other parts; but the distance is very gret from the province of Oude, to which, on any attack, our troops would advance; but generally speaking, I assent to the honourable gentleman's proposition.

From what other quarter are our provinces likely to be invaded, except through the province of Oude? Whenever Bengal has been invaded it has not been invaded by that quarter; when Bengal was under the dominion of Aliverdy Khan, it was invaded by Midnapore and by Bahar.

Was not Bengal in a very different situation, as well as the Mahratta States, from what they are now; and whether the great danger of our provinces has not been from the north-west frontier (the province of Oude and the penjab) from whence the great invader who was expected to come was expected ?-The last hostile force drawn out with a view to the invasion of the company's possessions was in the year 1780, and then it was a Mahratta army which threatened to invade by the way of Midnapore.

During the whole time you resided at Lucknow, in consequence of the monthly reliefs which took place, were not you almost in the habit of monthly intercourse with the officers of the Bengal army?-I was, and derived pleasure from the intercourse.

Did they not reside partly in your house?-I was in the habits of friendly intercourse with some of them, and derived great satisfaction from it.

Do you conceive that if there were no

troops stationed in Oude, if we had no connection with Oude, any considerable diminution could take place of the Bengal army for the defence of Bengal, Orissa, and the province of Benares, if we had no communication with Oude?-Undoubtedly, I conceive a very great diminution of our force might take place.

Do you conceive that by the possession of Allahabad, Cawnpore, Futty Ghur, and Anapshire, with thirteen thousand of the company's troops stationed in Oude, and with the facilities given on all occasions by the nabob's family for marching additional troops through the nabob's dominions when occasion required, that the British influence was sufficiently maintained in Oude, and they had every opportunity necessary for the defence of the dominions of Oude, or for quching internal commotions? Looking to fact, and seeing that from the Year 1775, to the present day, no attack has ever been made upon our possessions, and that no internal commotions of a formidable nature have been formed, I am undoubtedly of opinion the means which were used were sufficient.

Was not that the opinion of the military men you were in the habit of conversing with P-I cannot take upon myself to inform the committee of the opinions of others; I should apprehend the error in India is too confident an opinion of our own strength.

Have you been at Cawnpore, Futty Ghur, and Anapshire ?-At Cawnpore and Futty Ghur.

Is Cawnpore fortified?-No.
It is an open cantonment?-Yes.
Is Futty Ghur fortified ?-Certainly

not.

That is an open cantonment ?-They are not places of strength, but cantonments were the British troops are collected.

What was the nearest station of any English cantonment to the troops stationed at Cawnpore, th lowest of our stations in the naboo's country ?-They appear to have been Allahabad, about the distance of one hundred and twenty miles, Chunar to have been about the distance of sixty miles from Allahabad; those were the nearest stations.

Allahabad is very recently a militar station?-Yes.

Therefore you cannot think that the cantous of Cawnpore, or Fatty Ghur, could have received assistance from Allahabad, which was no military station ?→ I stated

I stated that I was incompetent to form an opinion, not being a military man; but seeing that no attack had been made for thirty years, during which time we had been in possession of these places, I was bound to regard them as sufficient for defence; I rest myself entirely on no attack having been made.

Do you think the nabob could incur any danger of personal risk from the disbanding his army, whether he would incur any contempt in the eyes of his subjects from seeing that army set at liberty without his consent?-I do not apprehend he was placed in circumstances of danger of any sort; because I apprehend that such was the awe inspired by the company's troops introduced into his dominions in consequence of the disbandment of his own, that none of his subjects could with safety to themselves have entertained any design mischievous to the nabob's safety; but the mischievous consequence he incurred, I think, was, that the disbandment of his troops was carried so far as to preclude him from the means of collecting his revenues.

Would he, according to the opinions of those eastern countries, have suffered any degradation in the eyes of his nobility, and those residing near his person, in consequence of seeing the army disbanded without his consent, and reforms introduced in which he appeared to have nothing to do, and done in despite of him? -No doubt by such an interference in the internal state of his affairs, he would be regarded with a less degree of respect by his subjects than he would otherwise; and I think the probable consequence that would ensue would be that a great number of his subjects would direct their attention more to the British resident and the British power.

You have already stated that you had a good deal of intercourse with the officers of the Bengal army, had you the happiness of knowing the late colonel Scott, and was he not only in your contemplation, but in that of every officer you conversed with, an officer of the first character, and much esteemed and respected ?-I had not the good fortune to know colonel Scott very intimately, but every thing I have heard of him leads me to concur entirely in the opinion which has been stated ;. I am disposed to believe he was a man of very high honour and very high integrity; I believe, also, he was a man, in his intercourse with Euro

peans, of extremely good temper; in his conduct towards the natives, I have heard, that, from not having, at an early period, mixed very much with them, there was a sort of harshness in his manners; and I have seen, in some instances, particularly when I was with sir Robert Abercrombie, that there was not that sort of courtesy which was usual amongst themselves; at the same time I do not mean to cast the least reflection upon him; I entertain the highest opinion of colonel Scott, and I believe, when he came to have more intercourse with the natives, his just apprehension would very soon correct that quickness which I observed when I saw him.

Doyou not know the higher rank of Mussulmen in those countries, are peculiarly persons of gravity of manners, of civility, and of gentleness?-Undoubtedly they are; I wish to add also, that if I had been to choose a person for the office of resident at Lucknow, I do not know any person I should have preferred to colonel Scott from what I have heard of him.

Do you know any thing of the actual conconduct of colonel Scott in the residency?

Certainly not beyond what is to be found in the papers; though I have always looked towards the people of that country with the sincerest attachment, 1 have not had communication of any sort or kind with any one since I left it.

Therefore you cannot speak of his conduct during the whole period of his residency?-Certainly not.

Do you not know that in 1794, when colonel Scott attended sir Robert Abercrombie, colonel Scott was accused of having turned an embassador from the Rohillas, sent to obtain peace, out of the tent, and to have led by it to the unfortunate issue of the battle of B- ?— There was some story of the kind, but I never could trace it to such a source as induced me to believe it was fact; I believe there was a kind of misapprehension in respect of a messenger the Rohillas had sent into sir Robert Abercrombie's

Sir Alured Clarke was called in and

examined.

In the year 1797, where not you commander in chief of the king's and company's forces in Bengal, and senior member of the Bengal council? Yes, I

was.

Who was then the governor general? -My lord Teignmouth, then sir John Shore.

Did you accompany sir John Shore to Lucknow, towards the close of the year 1797, some short time after the death of Asoph ul Dowlab ?—I went up nearly the same time he did, we did not go together, but we were there at the same

time.

Were you at the consultation held at Lucknow in December 1797, and the beginning of the year 1798, at Beby pore, which ended in the deposing of vizier Ali, and placing on the throne Saadut Ali, the present vizier of the empire?—I am not quite sure what may be meant by consultations; if you mean in the usual acceptation at meetings of the councils I was not, for I was not in that situation at Lucknow.

At the time sir John Shore was considering of the steps he was to pursue at Lucknow, were not you generally consulted?-I had frequent conversations with sir John Shore, he communicated to me most of his proceedings, if not all; I believe I may venture to say all.

You were consulted by the governorgeneral on the terms of the treaty proposed to be entered into between the company and the nabob vizier, Saadut Ali ?—I do not recollect that I was consulted particularly upon it; it was communicated to me-the intentions about it.

Was your opinion asked upon the terms?--I cannot say that I recollect it was; it is possible that may be the case, Pay situation was not there as a member of the council; any communication was in another capacity.

Was not your opinion asked as a friend generally, on all the measures adopted by sir John Shore ?—I have every reason to believe sir John Shore communicated with me on almost every occurrence which took place there.

Do you remember making any observation particularly at Bebypore in the presence of colonel Collins, Mr. Edmonstone, colonel Scott, and Mr. Lumsden, by which you conceived that the increase from fifty-five and a half lacs of rupees to seventy-six was too great an increase at

once, considering the resources of the vizier?-1 cannot say I have the least recollection of it; it is possible I may have been in company with those gentlemen, bnt I have not the smallest recollection of an observation to that effect.

Comparing the sum of fifty-five lacs of rupees to seventy-six, would it not have struck your excellency that the sum was excessive?-Upon my word I have not any recollection that it had such an effect upon my mind at the time, not the smallest; I do not know what effect it might have.

You saw the treaty before it was presented to the nabob?-At this distance of time I cannot positively say, but I think it is probable I did.

Was it not clearly understood by you, without adverting to whether you saw it before or after, when you looked at the treaty, and by all those consulted in framing the treaty, that if the nabob paid his kists or instalments, and performed the different stipulations of the treaty, that no interference, on the part of the company, was to be exercised in the internal management of the country, or in regard to his civil and military establishment?-I really cannot charge my recollection sufficiently to answer that question, but I should think the treaty itself will explain that thoroughly.

Did you not believe that, after the conclusion of the treaty, the nabob was to be the entire master of his country, uncontrolled manager thereof, and to possess, in reality, full authority over his dominions, his household affairs, his troops, and his subjects, as specified in the treaty?-The treaty went no further than his paying those kists; I do not recollect any stipulations there were further; I take for granted there was no intention then of interfering with him further than might be necessary from political considerations.

From the general impression upon your mind now, do not you believe that the nabob was to have the entire and uncontrolled management of the country, and control over his troops and his subjects?-Certainly; I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Previous to Sir John Shore leaving Calcutta, in March, 1798, was your excellency at Calcutta, or on your way there?-When he left Calcutta I was on my way to the presidency.

Did not you, and the other gentlemen of the council, highly approve of every part

again; I believe the whole period, though I do not recollect the dates of his going or returning, might be about nine months.

During that period, do you recollect whether lord Wellesley conveyed to you his fixed determination of interfering in the affairs of Oude? I do not quite understand the question as put, "his "fixed determination to interfere in the "affairs of Oude?"-he certainly wrote to me to say, that he wished very much to carry into effect the plan of reducing the vizier's troops, and the intention certainly was, when that was done, which I understood to be with the sanction, at least, and approbation, I believe, of the vizier himself, who certainly did not at all like to depend on the troops he then possessed; I believe that was the ground of it, and it was certainly after wards, in a certain degree, carried into effect.

Did you, during the period of your so acting, in any manner, accede to such interference, or sanction any infraction of the treaty of 1798?—I am not aware that I did, and I hope I did not; it was certainly meant to keep that treaty inviolable.

Did you understand that, by the reduction of the military establishment of the vizier, lord Wellesley meant to disband the greater part of the nabob's army, and to introduce British troops in the place of those so disbanded?—I certainly understood the intention both of the vizier and my lord Wellesley was to get rid of as many of the vizier's troops as they could, and as soon as they could; it was not practicable to do it immediately, and there were parts of the troops belonging to the company in readiness to supply the deficiencies as they might be able to reduce the nabob's troops.

Did you understand that lord Wellesley meant to reduce the whole of the nabob's troops, and to introduce instead of those troops so reduced an equal number, or any number, of the British troops?

It certainly was in contemplation to reduce the number of the vizier's troops, and to supply him with troops of the company's, for the protection of his country in the stead of theirs.

Whether be demanded them or not? -I understood it to be done with the concurrence of the vizier.

Do you mean, by reducing the number, that you understood, or sanctioned,

the