the reduction of the whole of the nabob's army? The more of them, as far as my opinion went, I thought the better both for the nabob and for us, for I thought he would be better served by the troops intended to be substituted in their stead. You mean to say, that, reducing the number was the same, in your opinion, as reducing the whole? My opinion only would have gone to thinking it better to reduce as many as they could: it was not practicable to do it all at once, it was done by degrees, and there were troops of the company ready to replace them. Did you understand lord Wellesley to mean the reduction of the whole of the nabob's troops?—I cannot say positively that that was his meaning; there, perhaps, might have been some troops they might not think it necessary to reduce; but I have every reason to believe he thought the more of them that were reduced the better; that is pretty nearly what I said before in another answer. I rather think that was his opinion; it is very difficult for me to say what passed in another man's mind. Did the communication you had with lord Wellesley convey that; can you say positively that he meant that?I cannot speak positively to that; I think that was his idea, that as many should be reduced as they could conveniently get rid of, and that the deficiency should be supplied by the company's troops. I do not know whether so many in number. At the time the treaty of Lucknow was concluded in 1798, did not you understand that a reduction of a considerable part of the nabob's army was necessary to enable him to pay the subsidy of seventy-six lacs of rupees ?I have not at this moment in my recollection what the extent of his army was, but I should have thought, and I think now, that a reduction of them was beneficial; I think it possible there might have been some reduction, but I cannot charge my memory. On, or about, the 25th of January, 1799, did not marquis Wellesley write to you, from Madras, respecting the affairs at Oude?-I recollect receiving a letter from lord Wellesley, and from Madras, respecting the affairs at Oude, the affairs I have been lately questioned on; but I do not recollect the date, and, indeed, I may add, I should not have recollected even that I had received such a letter, if by mere accident it had not been put into my hand in this house, amongst the printed papers, for I had not seen it, neither had I the least recollection of that letter. Do you remember that, in that letter, without adverting to the date) his lordship requested you to dispense with the services of colonel Scott, and to send him to Lucknow to assist Mr. Lumsden in those reforms which were proposed? -I have seen the letter in the printed papers, and I recollect perfectly the letter, but I cannot speak now as to the date; the letter will explain itself. I have not in my recollection those conversations to which the letter is supposed to allude, nor had I the letter in my recollection until I saw it. At the time that lord Wellesley wrote to you from Madras, did not perfect tranquillity prevail in Oude?- Upon my word I cannot recollect whether it did, or not, at that moment; it is clearly in my recollection that, at different periods, there was a want of tranquillity, but I cannot recollect whether, at that moment, that was the case. You do not recollect from the contents of that letter?- No; it is entirely out of my recollection whether there was or was not. Do you remember furnishing lord Wellesley with any report as to the in structions you furnished to colonel Scott on his proceeding to Lucknow ?-1 really have not them in my recollection; if I did, they are probably somewhere to be found. [Withdrew. After some time Sir Alured Clarke was again called in. Was it communicated by marquis Wellesley to the council of Bengal the part that he instructed you to act in conveying your ultimate instructions to colonel Scott?-Upon my word I cannot recollect whether it was or was not. I was at that time in the government of Bengal during my lord Wellesley's absence; I do not recollect whether it was or was not, but I am sure colonel Scott could not have been sent to Lucknow without its being with the knowledge of the whole council. I have no recollection, at this moment, whether it was or was not, but I do not think it likely. Almost immediately after colonel Scott arrived at Lucknow, was not Mr. Lumsden removed, or did he not resign his situation, and was succeeded by colo. nel Scott?-I must speak with a very faulty recollection of it. I presume he was removed, for he went soon after, first, to aid Mr. Lumsden to carry into execution the plan, which I understood the vizier and lord Wellesley both wished to be carried inte execution, of reducing the vizier's troops and replacing them by some of the British troops. Colonel Scott, who was adjutant-general of the Bengal army, and was living with me, I could very ill spare, but I thought he would be so useful that I did spare him. I cannot recollect whether it was on any communication with the other members of the council; I have said it must be, but I did not at that moment advert to the circumstance that he went as an assistant to Mr. Lumsden at first, and he might go under my orders as a military officer. Did you ever hear the reasons for Mr. Lumsden's removal or resignation?I must have heard at the time the reasons, but they are quite out of my memory. I rather think there was reason to suppose that part of this plan would be carried on by colonel Scott better, and that there might be some coolness between him and the nabob. You embarked for England late in February, 1801?—I did. After lord Wellesley's return to Bengal in 1799, and, previous to the time of your embarkation, did he make any intimation to you, as far as you remember, of his intention to deprive the vizier of the rights he possessed in virtue of the treaty of 1798-I do not recollect his ever making such a declaration to me. What rights does the question mean? The possession of his troops, his hereditary dominions, and his subjects?No; I do not recollect any such declaration, or any conversation on the subject, between lord Wellesley and my self. I recollect repeated conversations, and repeated acts, with respect to the reduction of his troops, and the orders given for others to supply them. Did his lordship communicate to you, either privately or as a member of the council, the correspondence his lordship held with the late colonel Scout?I must speak still under the same doubt. I have every reason to believe lord Wel lesley did occasionally correspond with colonel Scott. Did his lordship communicate to you, either privately or as a member of the council, the correspondence between his lordship and the late colonel Scott up to the time of your embarkation?Am I to understand by the correspondence the whole of the correspondence? I mean the whole of the correspondence?- Upon my word I cannot say whether he did or not. He frequently spoke to me on the subject of the nego tiations going on, but it is impossible for me to say whether he communicated the whole of it. What reason did he assign, if he assigned any, for keeping that correspondence from the consultations of coun cil?-He never assigned any reason to me for it that I recollect. The correspondence received by you from the foreign princes and residents, whilst president of the council, did you not think yourself bound to record immediately on the consultations of council?- Certainly, if they were of that nature that made it necessary. There was a sort of correspondence with the different princes of the country that was much of it very trifling-merely complimentary, and things of that kind. I cannot recollect what all those were, nor can I charge my memory particulary with respect to any time; but I take for granted every thing, which it was neces sary to lay before the council, I did. All letters as to negotiations between foreign princes and the Bengal government, did you not think it your duty to record in the council?- Any that I received; but I am not aware that I received any during the short period you are asking to, while I was governorgeneral, or afterwards, in lord Wenesley's absence. Did you not embark for England, in February, 1801, without being awe that lord Wellesley had determined to obtain, if possible, for the company, possession of the whole of Oude; or, failing in that, a cession of territory con.prising one-half of the vizier's done nions?-I certainly did not know that lord Wellesley had such intentions. As a member of the council, were you not entirely ignorant of such an intention when you embarked?--I have said before that I had no knowledge of his his having any such intention, certainly ποι. You were commander-in-chief in 1798 and 1799, when Zemaun Shah approached towards Lahore?-Yes, I was, certainly. Was not that chief considered, in India, as an enemy to the British power?We certainly considered him as such at the period mentioned. Have you not heard that colonel Malcolm was deputed to the court of Vespian purposely to prevail on the king of Persia to make war on Zemaun Shah, to prevent his approach to Lahore?- I cannot charge my memory particularly with that being the object of his embassy, I believe there were other objects, but I am speaking now entirely out of recollection of it. There were objects of another kind, I think, also that he had to effect; if that was one of them I do not know that it was. Was not the object of Zemaun Shah's expedition generally considered to be for the conquest, and the destruction of the British possessions in Hindustan ♪ -I do not know that it was for that only. It was for, the invasion of Hindostan, and the first impression would probably have been made upon the province of Oude. Did not the province of Oude lie between him and the possessions of the company in Hindostan ?—I do not know that it lay directly between, but it was the course he probably would have taken. Considering the immense increase made to the subsidy, by the treaty of 1798, at which you assisted, did you imagine that, in addition, the whole, or any part, of the army sent to the frontiers, under Sir James Craig, would also be charged to the expense of the vizier?-I have not in my recollection, at this moment, the words of the treaty, but I rather think it was intended that, if any very great additional expense was created, that it would be necessary for hun to bear a part of it; but I speak in some doubt, the treaty itself will explain that; I think I have not read the treaty since the period of my leaving India. When the subsidy was increased from fifty-five and a half lacs of rupees to seventy-six, that is from six hundred thousand pounds to a million annually, Was it not in your contemplation that the company was to keep up a force sufficient for the complete and entire defence of Oun? That is really out of my recollection. If a demand of five hundred thousand pounds had been made on the vizier in addition to the subsidy of seventy-six lacs of rupees in the same year that he mounted the throne, beyond the sum he was to pay for his advancement to the musnud, and the repairs of Allaha- · bad; do you not think that would have been an infraction of the treaty of 1798? [Withdrew. The committee determined that that Sir Alured Clarke was again Do you conceive that, if the greater part of the Bengal army was drawn to the western frontier of Oude to repel the invasion of Zemaun Shah, that the vizier ought to be burdened with the expense of the army, or the greater part of that question proposed. It is so much out of my recollection the words of the treaty that was entered into with the vizier, that I really am at a loss to answer that question. I mean to ask, if the whole, or the greater part, of the Bengal army, the expense of which would be nearly two millions per annum, was drawn to the western frontier of Oude, to repel the invasion of Zemaun Shah, or any invader, it was reasonable or right that the vizier should be called upon for the expense?—I really forget the stipulations of the treaty; if I could possibly conceive, that so great an expense might be incurred if the whole army was taken there, it would go beyond the bounds of reason that he should pay it all; but I do not know that there has been such a case; if it is asked as an opinion, that is the only opinion I can give on the subject. Do you remember what is the amount of the expense of the Bengal army?— It is impossible my recollection should serve me to answer that question: it is a thing which might be easily found by an inquiry of the court of directors, but but it is wholly impossible for me to say. Do you not imagine that, exclusive of the amount of the subsidy in a pecuniary point of view, being allowed to possess Cawnpore, Futty Ghur, and Allahabad, was of the greatest consequence in the scale of general defence? -Certainly, they were considered as such, and they were considered as objects proper to ask of the vizier. Were you acquainted with colonel Scott?-I was perfectly well acquainted with him. State to the committee the character of colonel Scott.I had the best opportunities of knowing colonel Scott perfectly well, he having been adjutantgeneral to the army, and living entirely with me; the opinion I entertained of him was of his being a man of extremely good abilities and high integrity, and as honourable a man, in every respect, as ever I was acquainted with in my life; that was an opinion formed long ago, and I have never heard any thing that should give me the least reason to alter it. Do you not consider the possession of the Doab, and of the province of Oude, as essential for the security of the com pany's possessions in Bengal?—I certainly consider them as material objects of the general divisions, both of the vizier's dominions and our own. When you so embarked in the lady Burgess, did you know that lord Wellesley had endeavoured to obtain possession of the whole of Oude for the company; but failing in that, the entire half of those dominions, in lieu of the subsidy of seventy-six lacs of rupees fixed by the treaty of 1798?- Officially I did Do you consider the open canton- not; it is necessary I should explain how ments of Cawnpore, Futty Ghur, and I was ignorant of that circumstance; for Anopshire, troops stationed at those dis- several months previous to my return to tant cantonments, and the body of troops England, I was under the necessity of that has generally been stationed there, absenting myself from an attendance on of themselves a sufficient defence for the board in consequence of severe inthat country, without, on some occa- disposition and complaint in my eyes; sions, calling in assistance from the lower it is the custom in conducting the busiparts of Bengal in cases of emergency?-ness of the Bengal government to send I certainly considered it otherwise. I did not consider it sufficient; but, during the time I held the command, I recommended strengthening the forces very much on the approach of Zemaun Shah to attack that frontier. Would you not conceive that the vizier's country, left in that state and condition that country has generally been in, I mean the internal government of the country, with an immense body of troops subjecting the vizier to large expenses to keep up those troops, that the country was in a very improper situation for the approach of any enemies, or the the papers, to be considered in council, round in circulation. After my confine ment, the secretary, from an attention to a member of the board, continued to send for, some time, those papers in the boxes to my house; but I found it necessary, from the real state of my health, to write officially, directing him in future not to send those papers to me, that it was impossible I could peruse them, and, consequently, it was only impeding the business, to have them sent to me; from that time, till tended the council for the purpose of resigning my situation at the board, IL at Vol.9. * Mr. Paull. Insver I never had a paper sent to me officially, of course I could not be officially informed of the circumstances mentioned by the honourable gentleman. It is necessary I should explain that I was privy to the measure the honourable gentleman mentions, but it was by personal communication with the governor general. A month or two before I left Bengal, the governor-general did me the honour to invite me to a garden house he set apart for my accommodation; I was in constant communication with him from that time till my departure, and I perfectly recollect that, in a confidential communication which passed between us a few days before I left India for England, he particularly, in desiring me to make communication to persons high in office in this country, included that subject. I also had frequent communications with him upon it at other times, at merely occasional meetings, when I saw him at breakfast, or at other times. I had no official information of it whatever. I should add, that I was not responsible under the act, for any acts done by the council when my attendance was not regular. You mean distinctly to state, that, from 1798 until within a month or two before your departure, you were entirely ignorant, as a member of the council, of his lordship's intentions of retaining the whole of Oude for the company, or failing in that, one-half? By no means; there was an application, I be lieve, about the month of November, 1799, or nearly about that period, a proposition from the nabob to the governor general to abdicate his throne; all the correspondence that passed on that occasion I was privy to; that was previous to the period I have before-mentioned, of my being obliged to retire from the Council from indisposition. I also perfectly recollect my great anxiety that that negotiation should not fail; and nothing gave me greater uneasiness, conceiving it of the greatest importance to the interests of the British empire, than to find that it finally had failed. Did you not approve of the treaty made in 1798, by Sir John Shore ?— Entirely. State how long you have been in India. I was in India from May 1769 till February, 1801. Be so good as to state whether you had constant communication, and the fullest information from the governor general, as a member of the council, in every transaction of his government, during the time lord Wellesley was governor-general ?-I firmly believe I' had; it is impossible to conceive that any two people, situated as myself and the noble marquis were relatively, could have, at all times, on the business of government, more unreserved and fuil communications. It was impossible any body could be treated with greater marks of attention, or receive greater proofs of his confidence than I did, as a mem ber of the council, during the whole of my residence in India after the arrival of the noble marquis. You have been in Oude ?- I have, but it is a very long time since. Will you state your opinion of the state of the administration of the nabob of Oude during the time you were there ? It is impossible to conceive a state of greater anarchy, or misrule, that has prevailed in the dominions of Oude; as far back certainly as I can recollect, there has been neither law, nor justice, nor subordination of any kind. As far as you had the knowledge, did the resources of the country decline during your knowledge of them ?They continued to decline from the first acquaintance I had with the dominions of Oude, till the last hour of my staying in India. Were they in a progressive state of decline during the whole of that time? -Yes. To what cause do you suppose that decline of the revenues is to be attri buted?-To the total want of all government in that country. What was the state of the police of the country?-There was none that I ever heard of. Were robberies frequent?-Very so。 as far as I ain informed; but I beg it to be understood, that I am speaking of the time I myself was there; they certainly were, when I was there, very frequent; every possible act of outrage the subjects of Oude were exposed to. State during what period you were in Oude, from what time to what time ?I arrived in Oude in January, or February, 1783, and left it in the month of February, 1784; I was only a year there. While you were a member of the supreme council in Bengal, what did you understand to be the opinion of the Court |