The CHAIRMAN. You would not believe that you would put it in there and, therefore, this is the joint venture account.

Mr. Mundie, have you examined this joint venture account from the standpoint of the bank's records?

Mr. MUNDIE. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you found any disbursements of any of these funds by check on that account to local 665 or to local 155, Little Rock

and Pine Bluff?

Mr. MUNDIE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were there any such disbursements of any of them to either of those locals?

Mr. MUNDIE. There were a few disbursements to the individual members that were participating, maybe, in the meeting or something over there.

Mr. Dove got $100.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about to the treasury of those unions. Mr. MUNDIE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What disbursements you are speaking of may have been in the nature of expense items that would be taken care of? Mr. MUNDIE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Did anything go into the treasuries as a payment to either of these other local unions out of these assessments that came in?

Mr. MUNDIE. No, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any disbursements of any of these funds you received to either of these other locals under the terms of this agreement that was entered into which has been made, I believe, exhibit 1?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir, Senator, I did not.

The CHAIRMAN. Were none due under the terms of that agreement? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. The agreement, itself, was denied by the authorities of our international union, not by me.

The CHAIRMAN. If the agreement itself, was denied, you had no right to keep the money, did you? If you are saying that the agreement was denied, that it is invalid, then you would have no right to keep any of the money, would you?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I have a right to keep all the money, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. The point I am making is that you have an agreement here, and I understand from those others that signed this agreement that their union never got a dollar out of it.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. They never did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you not agree in this agreement that periodic audits of the finances of the joint venture will be made, and after expenses are deducted for operation of the office and supervision, the remaining moneys will be equally divided?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. That was the agreement, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you carry it out?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir; not in that manner.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, in the manner that you did not distribute any of the money to them, is that correct?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, the members of their local unions paid their dues and assessments into their own local union. We did not collect any. It was originally intended that every one, all three of

our memberships, would pay into one fund, and that is where President Durkin broke down.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that these fellows who worked down there

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Paid into their local union.

The CHAIRMAN. Who paid you $3.50 a week in addition to their own local dues, had to pay another assessment to their own organization? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, if you will pick up the sheets like I have furnished you for exhibits here, the envelopes and the receipts, you will see many of them, and I mean by many, if all of them had not been destroyed-they were retained for 6 or 7 years.

The CHAIRMAN. I am asking you if they had to pay another one. Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Here is what happened. They paid in to their own local union and Pine Bluff, for instance, didn't have a penny in their treasury and could not staff their office with journeymen. We had to make a special dispensation that apprentices could hold office. If your committee would go in and audit the books of Pine Bluff you can determine how many thousands of dollars was paid into the Pine Bluff local union in lieu of being paid into El Dorado.

You can go into Hot Springs

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean, "in lieu of being paid into El Dorado"?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. You have been led to believe, Senator, that those members at Pine Bluff paid an equal amount of assessment to El Dorado that El Dorado members paid.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Yes. I know you have.

The CHAIRMAN. That was in the testimony. You said, "led to believe," but that is sworn testimony all the way through.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. There are individuals who refused to pay into their own local union and paid into El Dorado.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean they would permit them to refuse to pay an assessment in their own union and let them pay it to you? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator McCellan, they had the alternative to pay. Let's don't get off of that, please, sir, until you are satisfied. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Make your answer. Go ahead with

your answer.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Pine Bluff had no jurisdiction. They had no local union. They had had no meetings from 1945 until 1950 or 1951. They had no treasury. There were those who joined the local union who transferred into the local union for one reason or another, who paid their dues plus an assessment into Pine Bluff, which salved their conscience that they were paying an equal pro rata share for policing and upkeep. There were those who joined Pine Bluff, who couldn't salve their feeling, and who by some reason that I cannot tell you, who wanted to begin or continue paying $3.50 into El Dorado.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you ascribe any sane reason why a fellow working down there would want to voluntarily give $3.50 a week to your union?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I can tell you what they tell me. They will tell you openly today, some of them, that the expense of union promotion, union improvements, is being borne by this local union and we are making money.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I am talking about the individual saying, "We are making money. We feel we should pay into the local union who is incurring the expense, who is doing the supervising of the job." It is not uncommon wherever you go to find

The CHAIRMAN. It would be all right if it was a matter of bearing expenses. But here they are building up a tremendous fund at $3.50 a week into a union they do not belong to. Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. It is not unusual. The CHAIRMAN. Does that make sense? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. It is not unusual.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's follow these funds a little further.

How much actual expense was written out of these funds for the supervising of this job by the local, by local 706?

Mr. MUNDIE. Some $10,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Get the exact amount and we will insert it into the record at this point.

Mr. ADLERMAN. $10,421.

Mr. MUNDIE. $10,421.22.

The CHAIRMAN. How much was deposited into this joint venture account from the time it was opened until it was closed.

Mr. MUNDIE. $103,951.78.

The CHAIRMAN. How much?

Mr. MUNDIE. $103,571,78.

The CHAIRMAN. I have it here as 531.

Mr. MUNDIE. 531. I beg your pardon.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the total amount deposited in the joint venture account?

Mr. MUNDIE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The total amount that was disbursed as general expenses during the life of the account was $10,421.22; is that correct? Mr. MUNDIE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened to the remainder of the money in that account when it was closed out? How was it closed out?

Mr. MUNDIE. $39,303 was transferred to the building fund of local 706.

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. $39,303?

Mr. MUNDIE. 903.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's not have to go over this. $39,903 to the building fund.

Mr. MUNDIE. $26,603.78 went into the organizing fund; $26,603.78 went into the general fund.

The CHAIRMAN. Of local 706 ?

Mr. MUNDIE. Of local 106.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the $10,000-plus for expenses, plus the three distributions to the building fund, the organizing fund, and the general account accounts for the whole $103,531.78 that went into the fund, the joint-venture fund?

Mr. MUNDIE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The point I am making, and if you think this is unreasonable you explain what is unreasonable about it, why would men contribute to build up a tremendous fund over there in local 706 when they had their own union that you say was practically broke? Why would they do that voluntarily?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. It is quite simple. Because a majority of the people that cleared into the local union, Senator, were charter members to 706 or had transferred from 706 into Pine Bluff or Little Rock or Fort Smith or Hot Springs, and they had realized their wages were low, their work was gone, they had no work, they couldn't get a union job to develop in the area, and in all probability they continued to feel loyal to the local.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I am assuming a lot of things, but that is what has been told to me not by one but by dozens and dozens of people, and I pass it on.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you have in mind when this contract was drawn up? That it would be an assessment against them or a voluntary contribution?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, when that contract was drawn up, it was drawn up in haste. As you see it, it was thrown in my lap because they openly

The CHAIRMAN. I do not see where it was thrown in your lap.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a letter, and evidently I don't know where it is, though I may have it with me, wherein they say they couldn't do the work, they couldn't man the job, they couldn't get people to work there at their wage rates, and I don't know what all.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is that letter from you are talking about? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. From the different business agents to our international union.

The CHAIRMAN. That might be true. I do not know about that. We do not have it here. But here is a contract entered into. What did you have in mind the moneys that were going to come into your hands that you were going to account for and divide equally, what kind of moneys were they to be, voluntary payments or assessments? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. We had in mind, Senator McClellan, of assessing the members of the three local unions and following the practice of local 706 on migrant workers to assess the three local unions and put that money in one account and then split it at the end of the job. That was the intent and purpose of the agreement, as honorable as any man ever entered into one.

The CHAIRMAN. That was exactly what was done, except dividing the money at the end of the job, is that not correct?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator McClellan, you still don't get the point. If you will take the revenue that went into the treasury of not just Little Rock and Pine Bluff

The CHAIRMAN. That does not have anything to do with that. This agreement is talking about the money that you received in the joint

venture account.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. But when this agreement was broken

The CHAIRMAN. Who broke it?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. By mutual agreement that it should not be done by the directive of the general president, certainly not on the part of local 706 or any of its officers or members.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is anything other than this telegram telling you you have no right to do it?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, the constitution

The CHAIRMAN. You talk about it being broken. Where is anything that broke it other than the telegram?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. The constitution of the United Association, Senator, has not been changed, to my knowledge-it might have in a word or two-section 2. That about governs everything that we as local unions do.

The CHAIRMAN. I have not time to read it, but did it prohibit your making such an agreement as this?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. It gives the general president authority to assign jurisdiction for the current working day and no agreement or jurisdiction is for longer than the current working day. When that agreement was broken by the general president, every local union read it, knew it, approved it, accepted it.

The CHAIRMAN. How was this broken by the general president? He is not a party to it.

Senator ERVIN. Can I ask a question?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, here is how it is broken by the general president. He dictates the interpretation of jurisdictional awards, and the contracts that shall prevail upon the job. The international union had been a party to persuading us to take this project and supervise it. They would not become a party of something that was not habitual or customary practice.

The CHAIRMAN. This section, as I glance at it, refers only to jurisdiction. I do not see anything in there having to do with this assessment. The jurisdiction was conceded in this other document by the other two unions to your union. The jurisdiction was not in dispute in this agreement.

I would like to have printed in the record at this point, so there will be no question about what the witness relies on, section 2 of the constitution, which he presents here, dated August 13-17, 1956, as amended, at that time. Let that be printed. I do not think it refers to the question at issue here.

(The section referred to is as follows:)

SEC. 2. The jurisdiction of territory of the United Association embraces the United States and Canada, and its trade jurisdiction shall include all branches of the pipe fitting industry. In it alone is vested the power to establish Local Unions, and its mandates must be observed at all times and under all circumstances. To the United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada is reserved the right to decide all matters pertaining to trade and territorial jurisdiction of its affiliated Local Unions, and no Local Union is conceded territorial jurisdiction other than the current working day in said territory, while to Local Unions is conceded the right to make necessary laws and agreements for local government which do not conflict with the laws of the United Association.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. The thing that does refer to the issue, though, is that it was understood by all parties concerned that this agreement was being consummated with approval of General President Martin P. Durkin. It was also understood by the general organizer of the district that we could do that. I don't have the letter, though maybe you gentlemen do, where each local union wrote President Durkin their position in doing this job.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Ervin.

Senator ERVIN. As a matter of fact, the question arose before you started this project as to which union, which local, was going to have jurisdiction.