by the State on the one hand, and by each said that he proposed to admit secular religious body on the other. Each of these schools; he therefore desired to put the concordats had received additional sanction question whether this was to be done by whenever a new school was built, for it drawing up a new trust deed, as the late was embodied in the trust deed. Did the Government had proposed? If so, secular right hon. gentleman intend to abolish a and denominational schools would be contract so formally entered into, in order equally treated; if not, then the means of to get rid of the name "denominational doing so should be carefully considered. inspection?" Had he asked the represen- Thirdly, the right hon. gentleman had said tatives of those religious bodies whether that every civil parish, not ecclesiastical they would agree to the proposal? If he parish, was at once to become a school had not, then he not only broke faith with district. If this was merely for the purposes each religious body, and set at nought the of the census, it was well; but he must pledged word of the State; but he also remind him that many of these parishes broke all those treaties of peace, 16,000 in had no inhabitants at all, and very many number, and made enemies of all the more had not twenty inhabitants. He supschool managers. He asked again, had the posed, therefore, that the right hon. gentlereligious bodies agreed to give up their right man did not intend to enact that every of veto on the appointments of inspectors? parish should have a school. [Mr. W. E. Had the right hon. gentleman consulted the Forster said there was a provision for the religious denominations, or those who re- union of parishes.] This answer disposed presented them, in this matter? He wished of the difficulty to which he referred. The to know whether or not the right to veto right hon. gentleman had said that if a was to be taken away? The next point parish was "well supplied" it should be to which he would advert was the pro- left alone. But what did he mean by posed admission of secular schools. It was "well supplied?" Was it to remain with true that the late Government had deter- the Government of the day, by its arbitrary mined to admit secular schools to the fiat, to say that a parish was not well supreceipt of grants. But how did they pro- plied, and that a heavy rate must be impose to do so? By drawing up a new form posed on it? Would all unaided schools be of trust deed, or new management clauses at once excluded from consideration? [Mr. for them; for they said they would see W. E. Forster said he had stated that unwhether the people of England liked secular aided schools were to be taken into account.] schools or not. The late Government were He was glad to hear that, in considering confident that the people of England pre-whether a parish was "well supplied" with ferred religious schools to secular, and so they determined to put both kinds upon an equal footing, to start them fair in the race, and prove that secular schools would not succeed. It was well known that the British and Foreign Society's schools, and even they belonged to the denominations and were by no means secular, had no hold on the country. The managers of these schools were religious men, the masters belonged to religious denominations, the Bible was read in these schools, but no catechisms or formularies were taught. The result was that this society had no hold on public opinion, and that the schools in which distinctive religious teaching was given were preferred by the people. From the year 1833 until the year 1861, but few of these schools had been built; the Commissioners affirmed that not fourteen per cent. of the schools under the Privy Council belonged to the British and Foreign Society. If these were not in favour, how much less favour would secular schools ever obtain? The right hon. gentleman schools, unaided schools were to be taken into account. For there were about 7,000 parishes now well supplied with unaided Church schools; while the schools of only 5,000 parishes received assistance from the State. Yet the former were excellent schools, inspected by the diocesan inspectors, and contained as many scholars as all the Dissenting, the Scotch, and the British schools under the Privy Council. The night hon. gentleman had alluded to dame schools. These were in most cases, at the time the Commissioners reported, inferior schools; and so the name acquired an opprobrium. But the case was very different now. In a parish of less than 100 inhabitants they could not have a large school, because the numbers were small, and the subscriptions were small. It was necessary, therefore, to have a cottage school, kept by some mistress, and under the immediate care of the clergyman of the Church of England. These schools were small in number, only 662, with 14,674 children, according to the National Society's Report. These were not bad schools, and were confined to parishes | fully considered them, and was not prepared in which there could be no other schools. If these schools were to be admitted, as he supposed they would be if the education they gave was reasonably good, there would be very few places in which the present Bill would be operative. As the right hon. gentleman had alluded, rather disparagingly, to some statistics which he had adduced last year, and which had not been controverted, he trusted he might be permitted to allude briefly to the statistics given by the Vice-President. The right hon. gentleman alluded to the case of Liverpool, where he said there were 80,000 children between the ages of five and thirteen. Of these he said that 20,000 were in no school; and 20,000 more went to inferior schools. The Commissioners thought that for the children of the working classes, six years of schooling would be sufficient. Now, as there are eight years between five and thirteen, if every one of those children were to attend school for six years, three-fourths of the number ought to be at school in each year; and according to the showing of the right hon. gentleman, there were three-fourths at school. In Liverpool precisely threefourths of the children between the ages of five and thirteen were at school; so that according to the right hon. gentleman's own showing the number that ought to be at school were at school; and the only fault to be found was that 20,000 were at bad schools. to dispute them. He (Lord Robert Montagu) was anxious to show that he had not deceived or misled the House by inaccurate statistics; he might therefore mention that he had that day made calculations upon another basis, and that they showed nearly the same results. These figures were calculated for the year 1868. In order that every child should be at school for six years, there should be at school in each year 3,424,564; the scholars actually in aided schools were 1,527,665, which left to be accounted for 1,896,899. By the Report of the Schools Inquiry Commission, it appeared that there were of boys alone requiring secondary education 1.25 per cent. of the population, or 255,000, which left 1,641,899, including girls of the upper and middle classes. From this should be deducted for children in reformatories, factories, workhouses, Birkbeck schools, &c., say 100,000. There remained 1,541,899, including the aforesaid girls. Now, in 1858, there were in unaided public schools 654,393. Had this number increased since 1858? If so, it was because there was vastly more education than at that time; for the aided public schools had also increased very rapidly. But if education had increased so much both in aided and unaided schools, what had become of the small deficiency reported in 1861? At all events, there were now in unaided Church schools alone, of a good stamp, 571,890 (leaving only 116,503 for other public unaided schools). Private schools for the poor in 1858, contained 33 per cent. of the population; but the number, according to the Commissioners, decreased 1.2 per annum. Even if the LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, that number in private schools were supposed that was precisely what he had said; every to have remained the same, the result of child which should be at school was at these figures was, that it left for children school, but one-quarter were at bad schools, not at school, 313,970; but from this there which perhaps might be improved. With must be subtracted something on account regard to Manchester the same might be of the girls of the upper and middle classes. said; for the Vice-President had shown, This bore out the result supplied by the that of 65,000 children between the ages of figures furnished to him while in the Privy five and thirteen, only 16,000 were not at Council Office. The right hon. gentleman school in each year. He thought therefore said that the fault of the present system that the right hon. gentleman had failed to was that it only helped those who helped convince the House that there was any themselves. Well, that was the very educational destitution either at Liverpool essence of the present system, and was the or at Manchester. He alluded also to cer- object which the statesman who originated tain statistics that he (Lord Robert Mon- it had in view. They had said that they tagu) had produced last year; those figures would not resort to a forcing system, but were furnished by the office of the right would give assistance in proportion as hon. gentleman, and there was no doubt in education was appreciated and desired, his own mind of their accuracy. He believed, while they at the same time applied a moreover, that the Vice-President had care-stimulus and a spur to the local desire for MR. W. E. FORSTER: What I stated was that out of 80,000 children at Liverpool 20,000 were at no school at all, and 20,000 more were at schools where they were receiving no education worth having. education. To this conclusion those great statesmen of former days, who were opposed to what is called "the paternal theory of Government," ," had necessarily arrived. He did not know whether the right hon. gentleman had read the speech of Sir Robert Peel in 1839, in which he said that the object of the new system, as it was then, was not to cram education down the throats of the people, but to stimulate and help forward education. This system existed in full force until it received a check from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer when he brought in his Revised Code. He knew that the Revised Code had done a great deal of good in its way, but it certainly gave a check to the growth of schools, and to the increase in the number of scholars. The present Home Secretary had stated in that House in 1867 that "The Revised Code had aggravated one of the evils most strongly urged against our system- namely, that it gave aid where it was least wanted, and withheld it where the need was sorest."-[3 Hansard, clxxxv. 1158.] The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Forster) ought, therefore, to complain of his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the Government of Lord Palmerston, but for whom the number of schools would have increased more rapidly, and but for whom there would now have been no educational destitution. If the old system had been remedied with a less ruthless hand, and if the right hon. gentleman opposite had not given way to the desire to decrease expenditure, there would not now have been any educational destitution. It was true that the grants for education were then very large, reaching to nearly £1,000,000 sterling a-year. But that was partly because education was spreading so rapidly. The object of the Revised Code was to decrease these enormous grants for education. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time himself stated that his object was to decrease that expenditure, and a decrease of expenditure meant a decrease in the means of supplying education. The right hon. gentleman in 1867, enamoured of the system to which he had given birth, had said "You are not contented, although the work is done better and cheaper (under the Revised Code). You are not satisfied, but you must all begin tinkering and pulling to pieces the system which has produced such results."— [Ibid. 1162.] Yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had now given his assent to a Bill which tinkered the present system, and pulled B it to pieces more than any other Government had pretended to do. There was another point. The Government proposed that in the country the Vestry or Select Vestry was to elect the managers of the schools, and in some cases were to be the managers themselves. These new managers were to impose a rate for the maintenance of the schools. In towns, however, the Town Council was to elect the managers. Now, were persons in the country so much more intelligent than those who lived in towns that there a Vestry should be competent to do that which required in towns a Town Council for its due performance? He should have thought that in the rural districts electors would have been fixed upon who were of the same class in life as those who were taken in the towns. Again, such a system was like the letting in of water. It was impossible to say where it would stop. If they placed the schools in the hands of the vestries it would be found that there would be but one object pursued, that of grinding down the expense. Wherever the governing and taxing body was selected from a small area, the effect was a great restriction on the expenditure. Where the area was larger, local jealousies were neutralised, and larger views obtained. It was the case in regard to the poor, as the lamentable facts relating to the St. Pancras Guardians exemplified; and as to education the same result would follow. They would soon see the same result in England as had been brought about in Canada and in America; the system would be administered as cheaply as possible, and education would be greatly deteriorated. He must remind the right hon. gentleman that if he once allowed a resort to a system of rates numbers of persons would seek to evade the duty, which they now considered to be binding upon them, that of supporting schools. There was at present great voluntary support to schools; it was a matter of charity; and the burden was very unequal, because it varied according to the charitable feeling of individuals. Even these persons, at times, were conscious of the burden and of its inequality; so that under this Bill many would resort to rates to save their subscriptions. As the right hon. gentleman at the head of the Government remarked in the great education debates of April 11, 1856, such a system would put an end not only to voluntary subscriptions but also, as a consequence, to that interest in education which ought to be felt throughout the whole community. He now came MR. DIXON expressed his gratitude to his right hon. friend the Vice-President of the Council (Mr. Forster) for the measure he proposed to introduce, and he congratulated the Government for their sanction to it. He felt persuaded that the country generally would support them in their endeavours to carry its provisions out. He believed that the promise given in the speech from the Throne was now fully redeemed by the introduction of this Bill, and in supplementing it by giving compulsory power of attendance through the school boards throughout the country. The school to the last point in the proposed measure | ciple of the present system; they gave up and made it a measure which he felt as- separation which it was desirable should be made between religious and secular instruction should be left to the decision of an innumerable number of boards throughout the country, into whose election religious feeling must necessarily enter, instead of being directly effected by Parliament. He could not, under these circumstances, look with approval on the method by which his right hon. friend proposed the religious difficulty should be met, although, in leaving to the various boards the means of solving it, the way was paved for its ultimate removal. He was sorry it should be thought necessary to give merely permissive powers to the school boards to enforce compulsory attendance. That House ought to decide whether it should not only be made compulsory on parents to send their children but on the school boards to enforce such attendance. He was not surprised to find the Government shrinking from the responsibility of abolishing entirely all school fees. But his faith in the principle of the Bill was great, and his confidence in its wisdom was so full that he had no doubt the time would soon arrive when the school boards would be convinced of the utility of entirely abolishing those fees. As he understood, power would be given to the school boards to solve this question. Although he did not think the way to this end was the wisest, and certainly would not be the shortest, he was nevertheless convinced that its solution would be ultimately reached. He would not say he regretted to find no clauses in the Bill providing for the establishment of a purely educational department of the Government, because he hoped that the omission of such clauses merely meant that such clauses could not find a proper place in the Bill. He, however, hoped that before the session was over, a measure of that character would be introduced. The experience of even the last two months was sufficient to convince them of the absolute necessity of establishing the office of a Minister of Education, whose duty should be to attend exclusively to the working of the system. He felt quite sure that the people at large would be satisfied with the efforts of the Government, and he was still more certain that those efforts would be crowned with success. MR. MUNDELLA said, he had heard with the most unqualified satisfaction the speech of his right hon. friend the VicePresident of the Council, which was one becoming the boldness and sagacity of his character. His right hon. friend had that evening initiated a scheme which would ultimately be found to carry education home to every child in the country, although it might not be, logically and theoretically, all that could be desired had he had a tabula rasâ to work upon. But the Government had called into existence 20,000 or 30,000 schools, and no statesman could diminish their utility, or sweep them away. What was proposed was to supplement them. As an individual he was grateful to his right hon. friend, and he thanked God he had lived to hear a speech from him introducing so admirable a scheme of education to the House. The school boards were provided by the Bill, with the machinery necessary to secure the attendance of children at schools, and he could not bring himself to believe that they would neglect the duty which would devolve upon them in that respect, or that public opinion would neglect to enforce its performance. He should like to ask hon. members what they meant when they talked about education. In Germany the term signified that the child had been at school from six to fourteen years of age; but some persons in this country seemed to imagine that it was sufficient for the child's name to have once appeared on the school books for its education to be completed. When the frightful ignorance prevailing among the lower classes was more generally known all scruples against compulsory education would vanish. He had never regarded the religious difficulty as being of any considerable magnitude, because he believed that the people of this country generally desired that their children should receive religious teaching, and in support of that proposition he might state that a very able man belonging to the working classes had told him that the religious difficulty had been made for and not by the lower classes. They desired that their children should be taught the principles of Christianity, the best proof of which was in fact that 3,000,000 children belonging to the working classes were in attendance at Sunday-schools. He did not desire to enter into the details of the measure now under discussion, but he regarded it as a step in the right direction, and calculated to secure at no distant date a general system of national education. Until such a system was adopted as would render the inhabitants of this country the best educated people in the world, neither he nor those hon. members who acted with him should be satisfied. He cordially agreed with the |