already be proved to belong to the Crown, upon the same terms as if an enclosure were to take place, to lot out and sell certain portions of the property, and to receive deposits the same as if he or the Crown were the sole and undisputed owners thereof.

Such conduct evinces something worse than ignorance and folly, and will not, I flatter myself, meet with your sanction or approval. It never can be competent in Mr. Morgan to allot or attempt disposing of the property without an Act of Inclosure; but even if so, it would be unjustifiable in the present instance to do so pending the negotiations now existing between us. His valuation, I may be allowed at the same time to observe, is one of the most arbitrary things ever yet seen, professing to give, upon his ipse dixit alone, without any acquiescence or sanction on our part, a survey of the whole of Mr. Johnes's estates, apportioning what he calls waste, and what private property, and setting against the former a valuation which, in many instances, I shall be able to show is double what we can get for the whole farm of which it forms a part. This also I apprehend is what was never your intention, and to prove its fallacy it needs not any further observation than merely to remark, that if the whole of the estate, including the arable and meadow, as well as the waste, were to be disposed of at the rate of Mr. Morgan's valuation upon the latter alone, it would be considered by the executors of the late Mr. Johnes to be exceedingly well sold. These observations I have deemed it necessary to make, in the hope that you will see the propriety of stopping any further proceedings on the part of Mr. Morgan until my return to town, when I will immediately wait upon you with the plans and rentals of the estate, and endeavour to convince you of the error in supposing that any part of the property is Crown land, or if I fail in doing so, of compromising the matter upon fair and equitable grounds, or if we cannot agree, consenting to an inclosure, wherein I will venture to assert, that the claim of the Crown, if allowed to its full extent, would never realize, at the outside, beyond 200 l. or 300 l. Before I conclude, however, permit me to observe that it seems somewhat extraordinary, if my information be correct, that we, of all others, should be singled out as the person against whom alone the Crown has thought proper as yet to assert its claim, against the creditors of a person who expended a fortune in the improve- ment of Wales, and in bringing that property now the subject of dispute into a state of cultivation.

I HAVE delayed answering your letter of the 13th, enclosing one from Mr. Harrison complaining of the valuation made by Mr. Morgan of the encroachments on the Crown wastes adjoining the Hafod estate, until I had an opportunity of seeing Mr. Morgan, and of obtaining from him all particulars relative to the property valued. I have the honour to report, that so far from the encroachments and the portion of the waste being highly valued, I consider the valuation at the very lowest scale on which an affidavit could be made by the valuer, and I cannot recommend that a less sum than 1,1007. should be taken for this property. The sale of the Hafod estate depends very much on the arrangement to be made with the Board, for I do not think that while the claims of the Crown are pending any real purchaser will be found, and if the rights of the lord of the manor were exercised, and openings made in the fences of the new plantations on the common land, the estate would be most materially deteriorated in value.

Alex. Milne, Esq.

I have, &c. (signed)

John Wilkin.

Sir,

Office of Woods, 15 Nov. 1830.

WITH reference to the communications which have passed with you on the subject of the proposed purchase by the executors of the late Mr. Johnes of the interest of the Crown in certain tracts of land formerly portions of the waste belonging to the Crown, but inclosed and planted by Mr. Johnes, I am directed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Woods, &c. to send you herewith the enclosed copy of a valuation of the said encroachments and wastes (exclusive of the mines and minerals, and the sheepwalk called Dolygoes, which have not been valued), as it has been claimed by some of the adjoining freeholders.

This valuation has been made by Mr. Morgan, pursuant to a suggestion contained in a letter from you of 4th June last, subject to the reservation of the minerals. The Commissioners will recommend to the Lords of the Treasury to authorize a sale to the executors of all the right, title, and interest of the Crown in the property comprised in that valuation, and on the terms therein mentioned. I am, at the same time, to acquaint you that although the Commissioners have reason to believe the valuation of Mr. Morgan to be fair and moderate, yet as it appears from your letter of the 24th September last that you

are of a different opinion, they will give their attention to any valuation of the same property by any other surveyor of eminence and respectability which you may think fit to submit to them, bearing in mind that such valuation must be authenticated upon oath, if so required.

C. Harrison, Esq.

I am, &c. .(signed) A. Milne.

Sir,

43, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, 17 Nov. 1830.

I AM favoured with your letter of the 15th instant, which I have forwarded to Mr. Smith, but beg to remind you (of which you are doubtless not aware) that the valuation referred to was omitted to be enclosed. I would beg also to inquire if I am to consider your letter as expressive of the intention of the Commissioners not to include the mines and minerals in any arrangement we may come to, which I see you reserve, as in that case I fear it will be an insuperable difficulty in the way of our plans, which has avowedly been to clear our title of any doubtful or supposed defect; and when we proposed confining our treaty to the surface, it was expressly limited to such part of the property as could be "clearly and distinctly shown to be waste." It is not for the value of them that we are at all anxious, being confidently assured, by those who are best competent to judge of the matter, that the mines and minerals are not worth an old song; but if any doubt could possibly exist upon this head, we are desirous, and court every kind of inquiry, declaring most positively that we should care nothing about them if it were not for the objection which the reservation of them to the Crown would create to our title.

Perhaps I may be permitted, at the same time, to ask if the Commissioners would be disposed to treat for a sale of the royalties of the whole lordship, as by that means, if practicable, we might unquestionably be able to make a clear title; and an answer upon this point would greatly oblige,

A. Milne, Esq.

Sir, your, &c. (signed)

Charles Harrison.

Sir,

43, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, 30 November 1830.

I was much disappointed at receiving yesterday morning only a copy of Mr. Morgan's valuation, for which, however, I beg to express my thanks, but allow me to say it would have been more satisfactory had it signified the intention of the Crown Commissioners to include in the proposed arrangements the mines and minerals, without which I am sure, you will easily perceive, it is almost useless for us to agitate the question, as it does not secure us a fee-simple estate, which is avowedly our object, with a view to a sale.

You will recollect that the claim of the Crown is a disputed one, and with reference to the different Acts of Parliament which have passed over any lands in adjoining lordships, you will absolutely be precluded from interfering with the lands forming the subject of dispute, the whole having been inclosed, and mapped and planned, and always reputed as Mr. Johnes's private estate, which therefore, I should hope, would entitle us to some indulgence; and when we are credibly informed, and we court inquiry upon that head, that the mines and minerals are not worth the slightest consideration, I trust they will not be allowed to form any obstacle to our arrangement, about which we are anxious upon no other account than to enable us the better to dispose of the property, and thus acquire the means of satisfying the claims of Mr. Johnes's creditors, many of whom are actually starving for want of it.

These are the considerations which induce me to trouble you again upon the matter, and I trust to your giving it your earliest attention; and believe me,

A. Milne, Esq.

Sir, your, &c. (signed)

Charles Harrison.

"The property in estates in South Wales, except in the coal districts, is generally sold including minerals, which generally sell from 22 to 25 years' purchase, on a rack rent; when the minerals are reserved, the sale of the surface does not exceed 20 years' purchasethe Briton Ferry estates, Ash Coed estates, and several other large estates in coal districts. Hafod estate is situate very inland, and there is no coal in the county; the only mineral discovered is lead ore, and in the present state of the lead markets, the proved and very best mines in the county of Cardigan will not pay for working; the lead veins are mostly small pipe veins; and on the Hafod estate there have not been any veins discovered that ever induced the proprietor to make any attempt to work."

Sir,

43, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, 16 December 1830. ABOVE I take the liberty of sending you extract from a Report made by Mr. Adam Murray, respecting the alleged Crown encroachments upon the Hafod estate, which, however, it is useless to forward to you until we are made acquainted whether or not the Commissioners intend to insist upon a reservation of the minerals in any arrangement we may

be

be willing to come to, which in that case must render all our object abortive, as it would be madness for Mr. Johnes's executors to admit the title of the Crown to any portion of the lands which has been held by Mr. Johnes for upwards of the last 40 years, and handed down to them as his own absolute property, when it would have the effect of recognising the right and title of the Crown (which at best is but doubtful) to all the minerals therein, and thus render their title still more defective. Our sole object is to enable us to dispose of the estate without any doubt or question; and when this is considered, and it is also recollected that the title of the Crown is a subject of dispute, though we are willing to give the utmost possible value for their interest, the same as if it were admitted; that if admitted no saleable title could possibly be made to it without an Act of Parliament, the expenses of which would probably absorb the whole of its value, but will be saved by this arrangement, I cannot help thinking that it is the interest of the Crown, as well as our own, to comply with our wishes, and to make the proposed treaty extend to the minerals as well as the surface, upon which point, however, again I beg leave to be favoured with the Commissioners' determination,

A. Milne, Esq.

And remain, &c.
(signed)

Charles Harrison.

Sir,

43, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, 29 Dec. 1830.

I AM almost ashamed to trouble you again respecting the alleged encroachments on the Hafod estate, presuming that you are making the necessary inquiries to enable you to answer me whether or not the mines and minerals, which I understood you to say in the summer might be made part of our negotiation, are to be included in the arrangement, provided we agree upon a price. You already are aware of my reasons for pressing this point upon your consideration, and it is the urgency of the case, and the necessity we are under of immediately bringing the property to a sale, that must plead as my apology for appearing so importunate.

A. Milne, Esq.

1 am, &c.

Sir,

THE Commissioners of His Majesty's Woods, &c. have had under their consideration your letter of the 29th ult. requesting to be informed as to the decision of the Board on your application for having the mines and minerals within the wastes proposed to be granted to the representatives of Mr. Johnes included in the grant, and they desire me to inform you, in reply, that they cannot form a judgment as to the price that should be required for the same until a survey shall be made of the wastes by their mine agent, and that they are ready to direct such survey to be made thereof, provided you will engage to pay the expense of such survey and valuation, the same to be paid (according to the regulation laid down by the Board for their guidance in such cases) whether the representatives of Mr. Johnes shall accept the terms that may be proposed to them for the purchase of the Crown's interest therein or not.

C. Harrison, Esq.

Re Johnes.

I am, &c. (signed)

A. Milne.

My dear Sir,

43, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, 24 Feb. 1831. I HAVE been expecting to hear from you on this subject, according to promise, but flatter myself now that I shall be enabled to spare you any further trouble, Mr. Smith, whom you know to be all caution and circumspection, having written to say that if you will not object to some such recital as that proposed in the enclosed paper to be inserted in the deed of arrangement between himself and the Crown, he is willing that you should send any surveyor you think proper to ascertain the value or supposed value of the mines, one half of the expense to be paid by our estate, in the event of its not leading to an amicable arrangement of the whole question in dispute, or the whole to be defrayed out of the purchasemoney, as you, I believe, proposed, if the anticipated compromise shall thereupon take place.

I thus begin to hope that this troublesome matter will now very shortly be brought to a close, as I cannot foresee the slightest objection that you or the Commissioners can possibly entertain to the form of the enclosed paper, having always understood it was perfectly indifferent to them in what mode the matter was settled, provided they got the full compensation and value of their rights. In regard to the propriety of Mr. Morgan's valuation, upon which I before have taken the liberty to remark, showing that he has estimated the

waste part alone of many of the farms at double what they are let at or have ever produced, Mr. Smith desires me to submit for your consideration whether you would refer it to Adam Murray and any one else the Commissioners may please to appoint on their behalf, with power for them or their umpire to decide what is a fair equivalent for the value of the Crown rights, as the most equitable mode of disposing of the question; but as you have kindly consented to receive the valuation made by Adam Murray, and to give it the attention it deserves, I should be perfectly satisfied with this understanding.

Mr. Harrison's compliments to Mr. Milne and begs to forward him copy of Mr. Adam Murray's valuation of the supposed wastes on the Hafod estate, the latter part of which alone, referring to the custom of including the mines and minerals upon a computation of 25 years' purchase on the gross annual value, he finds by his letter of the 16th December last, was before furnished to him. Mr. Harrison presumes that he need hardly add that this valuation will be accepted, as without prejudice to the rights of Mr. Johnes's representatives, and he will be greatly obliged by Mr. Milne stating whether or not the Commissioners are willing thus to include the mines and minerals in the valuation, or what they propose doing respecting them.

14, Southampton Buildings, 4th July 1831.

Dear Sir,

Salisbury-square, 9 March 1831.

WE have perused the recitals transmitted to us by you on the 24th ult., proposed by Mr. Smith to be inserted in the conveyance from the Commissioners of Woods to him, and we are desired by them to inform you, that though they are desirous of meeting Mr. Smith's wishes so far as they can, consistently with the Crown's obtaining the full and fair value of its right and interest in the Hafod estate, yet they cannot agree to the insertion of those recitals, as they do not concur in their language so far as it relates to the rights of the Crown; and as respects the suit of Johnes v. Claughton, and the subsequent proceedings, the recitals may or may not be correct, as the Commissioners have no means of judging of their accuracy; but they desire us further to state that they cannot see any necessity or reason for departing from their usual form of conveyance, which is sufficient to pass all the Crown's right and interest in the Hafod estate to Mr. Smith. The Commissioners of Woods cannot agree to refer the value of the rights of the Crown in the way you propose, Mr. Adam Murray having already, as the agent and surveyor of Mr. Smith, made a valuation which differs so considerably from that of Mr. Morgan, the surveyor employed by the Commissioners.

C. Harrison, Esq.

We are, &c. (signed)

Green, Pemberton, Crawley & Gardiner.

Dear Sir,

Salisbury-square, 22 August 1831.

We have been in daily expectation of receiving a letter from you agreeing to have a survey made to ascertain whether there are any minerals under the Hafod estate, and if there are, what their value may be. Upon your sending us a letter agreeing that the Commissioners shall give instructions to get this done by some experienced person, and that the expenses attending it shall be borne as arranged between us some time since, we think that the principal obstacles to a speedy arrangement of the whole matter will be removed.

C. Harrison, Esq.

We are, &c.

(signed)

Green, Pemberton, Crawley & Gardiner.

Re Johnes.

Dear Sirs, 14, Southampton Buildings, 1 September 1831. ABSENCE from town has prevented our replying earlier to your letter of the 22d ult. We have no objection whatever to the survey being made upon the terms proposed, it being understood as not to be taken as any admission on our part of the claim of the Crown, and not to be binding upon us as an agreement for purchase of the Crown's alleged right, in case we shall hereafter be so advised; but we had hoped that the agents of the Crown would have satisfied themselves first of the mines being of some real and extraordinary value before they called upon us to concur in what may hereafter turn out to be an unnecessary expense, and before they felt themselves justified in departing from what we under

stand

stand to be the usual course of including the mines and minerals in an estimate of their interest, taken at a calculation of 25 years' purchase, upon which point we have written to you several times, thinking it a proper and preliminary measure to be first determined upon, and which we thought was all along under your consideration. But be that as it may, as we infer from your letter the Commissioners decline it, we have no alternative, feeling as we do a sincere desire of bringing so troublesome and long pending affair to a conclusion, but to agree to your proposal. In doing so, however, as it is rather an arbitrary proceeding for the surveyors of the Crown at once to make a valuation without any interference on behalf of the other parties whose interests are concerned, we have to express a hope that the Commissioners will appoint some fit and proper person to do the business, and not such a man as Mr. Morgan, who has valued the waste part of a farm alone at double what it produces or what we can get any tenant to take it at, and who, pending our treaty, has actually entered into agreements for sale in toto of the very property which we are in treaty for, and over which the Crown, at best, has only a claim to rights of common. We remain, &c. (signed)

To Messrs. Green, Pemberton,
Crawley, & Gardiner.

E. & C. Harrison.

Sir,

Salisbury-square, 2 Sept. 1831.

WE herewith transmit you a copy of a letter which we have received from Messrs. E. & C. Harrison, on the subject of the valuation of the mines and minerals under the wastes of the Crown, and now forming part of the Hafod estate, and we will thank you to lay the same before the Board, and favour us with the answer they may desire to be given thereto.

A. Milne, Esq.

We are, &c.

(signed) Green, Pemberton, Crawley, & Gardiner.

Sir,

Office of Woods, &c. 22 Nov. 1831.

THE Commissioners of His Majesty's Woods, &c. have again had under their attention the proceedings which have taken place for the sale to the representatives of the late Mr. Johnes of the Crown's interest in the wastes attached to the Hafod estate, and the minerals under the same; and having had a further report upon the subject laid before them by Mr. Humfray and Mr. Morgan, they desire me to inform you, that on taking the same into consideration, they feel it to be their duty to adhere to the valuation of Mr. Morgan as to the right of soil, and that unless the representatives of Mr. Johnes are willing to complete the purchase according to that valuation, all treaty between them and the Board must consequently be considered at an end. I am likewise directed to inform you that the Board, on perusing these reports, are confirmed in their opinion as to the propriety of declining to treat for the sale of the minerals, except by reference, as suggested in my former letters to you on the subject.

C. Harrison, Esq.

I am, &c. (signed) A. Milne.

Sir,

14, Southampton Buildings, 25 Nov. 1831. THE contents of yours of the 22d instant has not a little astonished us, after the assurance you gave us of the readiness of the Board to entertain the report of Mr. Murray, or anybody else, provided it was supported by affidavit, but without pledging themselves to what weight they would attach to it, which is all that we required; we did not expect such a peremptory acquiescence in the report made by Mr. Morgan. You surely do not consider the situation we are placed in, and that we, like the Commissioners, have a duty to perform, in which others, not ourselves, are personally interested, or you never would impose upon us so much responsibility. As to a reference, we have no recollection of anything of the kind having been ever proposed, but do not hesitate to say it would be the most agreeable mode, as well as the most consistent and safe for our clients as executors to adopt, and they will not object thus to dispose of the whole of the matter; and to show their sincerity as to the worth and value of the mines, they will not object selling or exchanging with the Crown for a fair equivalent any portion of the estate upon which it may be supposed any mines exist.

Pray do not suppose we have any inclination or desire to resist the just claims of the Crown, but consider what you yourself would do, under similar circumstances, viz. in the character of executor, implicitly acknowledging the right of another to land, of which the testator was seised at his death, and was mapped and planned as his own private estate, and of which he had enjoyed uninterrupted possession for a period of upwards of 163.