Mr. FOUNTAIN. Mr. Hope, I intended no such inference, although that is always that possibility when anyone has too much power. I was simply trying to say since a Secretary has innumerable resonsibilities and must delegate to his subordinate many of those responsibilities, oftentimes he may not be in a position to keep in touch with everything that is going on and, with the lapse of time, someone to whom he has delegated functions might, because of a lack of interest in the programs those functions were designed to carry out cause them, or permit them to become dormant and concealed from the attention of Congress. Consequently Congress changing makeup from time to time might forget that those functions were authorized for a particuiar purpose. Hence important congressional policy could be affected. Now I would like to ask Mr. Benson a few more questions.

Mr. Loos. Mr. Fountain, may I just make one observation before you proceed?

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Yes.

Mr. Loos. I would like to say all these plans, including this plan, before being submitted to Congress have been approved and passed upon for legality by the Attorney General-and that applies to all 28 of the plans which have become effective, as well as this plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Thank you, Mr. Loos. I am glad to get that information.

Mr. Benson, have you ever stated that the Secretary of Agriculture has previously had too much authority?

Secretary BENSON. Mr. Fountain, may I say, first, I appreciate the kind things you have said about the present Secretary.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Yes, sir.

Secretary BENSON. I hope that my service will merit your continued confidence.

Of course, I don't remember exactly what I have said on every occasion, but I do remember distinctly that I said I was very much surprised to find the great responsibility and authority vested in one office, namely, the Secretary of Agriculture. It's enough to almost stagger any person as he becomes familiar with the authority that has been centered in that office; and certainly were it not necessary in order to carry out the responsibility which is mine I would not be inclined to ask for any more authority.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Then, you admit, despite the staggering authority and responsibility which you now have, that if this plan is not rejected, and the President requested to submit another, your responsibility and your authority will be much greater?

Secretary BENSON. I think probably the responsibility will be no greater, but the authority to carry out that responsibility will be more adequate.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, now, when you say "adequate"-I can naturally appreciate the fact that if I am supposed to do a job and I feel that I need certain authority to do it, I would want that authority, and yet I might possibly overlook the grave and dangerous possibilities in the future when some other person might not think too much in terms of his responsibilities but in terms of what he can do to carry out his own will, which may not be the will of the Members of the Congress who have acted and who have set these agencies up and have outlined the functions which they want these agencies to perform for specific purposes.

Now, Mr. Benson, were you opposed to plan No. 4 of 1950, which was rejected by the Senate?

Secretary BENSON. I was not acquainted with the plan. I had no occasion to study it and become familiar with it, Mr. Congressman. Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, you have had occasion to study that plan since this plan was submitted.

Secretary BENSON. Only very casually. I am not acquainted with the details.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Now, you have

Secretary BENSON. These committees that I have referred to, which have given study to this matter of reorganization, went into them in some detail, but personally I have not studied them in any detail at all.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Now, of course, you explained to us this morning some of the differences between the two plans

Secretary BENSON. Yes.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. And I would assume from that explanation that you had at least made a general study of Reorganization Plan No. 4

of 1950.

I would like to ask you this: If that same plan were being submitted to us today, would you be in favor of it?

Secretary BENSON. Well, I don't know whether I would or not. I would want to become more familiar with it than I am now.

I do feel, however, that when anyone is given the responsibility to operate he ought to have enough authority to do the job and do it as the authority that appointed him intends him to do it, and as the Congress would have him do it.

I realize there's always a hazard in granting authority to any man, but it seems to me that efficient operation is absolutely impossible unless a man has authority commensurate with that responsibilityand that's all I desire so far as the Department of Agriculture is concerned.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, I can appreciate your position, Mr. Benson, but I understood in your earlier testimony that you had no definite consolidations or transfers in mind, other than the one example which you gave in respect, I believe, to the Production and Marketing Administration. Was that it?

Secretary BENSON. No; it was the marketing work in the Department.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. The marketing work?

Secretary BENSON. Yes.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Now, if you do not have anything in mind, or in such a tangible form that you feel you could present it, would you have objection to preparing the framework of such a plan or plans from time to time at least in such reasonably specific terms that they could be clearly understood by the Members of Congress, giving them an opportunity to reject or accept the plan.

Secretary BENSON. I tried to make clear in my statement, Mr. Congressman, that as I look at this it is a continuing thing. It isn't something you can do today and say, "The job is done. This is the plan." As we move forward, we will have to continue our study, and I agree fully with the statement that was made back in 1937, which I quoted-that it is not possible to make a blueprint once and for all and say, "This is the job we're going to do." We can set forth some

broad objectives, some broad principles, and work toward those objectives; but it must be a continuing job, as I view it.

Now, we've only been in office, as you know, a short time; but we've already found from week to week some of the things that have come to our attention which need adjusting in the interests of efficiency and more effective administration. Now, I expect as the months ahead pass by we'll find other things that need our attention.

I wouldn't feel that I could make out any definite blueprint once and for all, today or in the immediate future. I think this is a thing that will have to be continued-this study-and we will have to follow in line with what the studies reveal.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, I quite agree with you that you would not be able to present to us the organization details, but there seems to be so much concern on the part of a lot of people-not just Members of the Congress as to what is going to happen

Secretary BENSON. I think

Mr. FOUNTAIN. And I think you can-
Secretary BENSON. Excuse me.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well appreciate the fact that a Secretary, under this plan, will have the authority, and he may exercise it conscientiously, to do what he thinks is for the best interests of the farmers and the other people of America; and, yet, he may make some serious mistakes, because Members of Congress did not have an opportunity to give it the thorough study that they would have if it were legislation confronting them in the usual and regular manner: and some action he or one of his subordinates might take, may well have the effect of repealing congressional legislation. Thus a particular agency which Congress vested with certain functions, could not, and the transferee agency, under this plan, might not carry out certain functions intended by Congress, regardless of the intentions, I might say, of the Secretary of Agriculture, or anybody else.

Secretary BENSON. Well, I have no doubt, Congressman Fountain, that I will make mistakes. Most humans do. But one of the reasons why I was anxious to have that provision in the plan providing for consultation was the hope that it would reduce to the minimum the mistakes which the Secretary would make; and certainly it will not be my intention to in any way stifle functions that have been prescribed by the Congress in any agency, but always to try and carry out specifically the intentions of the Congress.

As an example of what I have in mind, only a week ago Sunday I was down in your good State and, after a graduation baccalaureate service, I met with the group of representative tobacco growers, dealers, and handlers. I did it specifically to get their counsel, to get their comments and their advice, in order that I might be better prepared when the time came to make some decisions.

Now, that's the value of counsel, as I see it, and that's the reason why I think any Secretary, if he is going to do the best job possible, will have to have the advice and counsel of the Congress and farm groups, those he has the responsibility of serving-and I don't see it any other way-and that means that this counsel will continue from day to day, month to month, and through that counsel the blueprint will be established from time to time, as we move forward, as a continuing program.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. You, of course, realize that when these hearings are had you might well be subjected to all kinds of pressures from numbers of groups interested in the work of the Department of Agriculture.

Secretary BENSON. I've already experienced that, sir.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. You have already experienced that.

I might say I was delighted to know before coming here that you've had occasion to visit my hometown, and I gave my cooperation in every way I could to help the people of your religious faith get that beautiful church.

Secretary BENSON. If all the peple of North Carolna are as fine as that group I met down there, they are wonderful people-some 3,000 of them there at that service.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Mr. Benson, I want to ask you this question: Have you read the report of the Senate committee which acted upon Reorganization Plan No. 4 in 1950?

Secretary BENSON. Well, it would be better for me to say I've skimmed through it.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Skimmed through it?

Secretary BENSON. Yes.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, now

Secretary BENSON. I haven't read it in detail.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. It concerns me because the members of that committee, members of both parties, were very frank and clear cut in their opposition to Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1950.

I would like to read you just a few excerpts:

A majority of the committee was opposed to Reorganization Plan No. 4 on the premise it contained unwarranted delegation of authority to the Secretary of Agriculture on a permanent and continuing basis without restriction or restraint as to how or when it would be exercised.

It authorized the Secretary to consolidate or abolish

The word "abolish" has been eliminated from this particular planlong-standing components in conformity with any overall national farm program that may be adopted by this or any other incoming national administration.

It authorizes the Secretary of Agriculture to take actions which would in effect destroy the will of Congress as expressed in basic legislation setting up the various functions of the Department of Agriculture and bring the policies of the Department under direct political control of the President.

Under such broad authority, the Secretary of Agriculture could transfer important services now performed by traditionally accepted agencies within the Department to other agencies which have his personal sanction.

They were essentially some of the objections which were offered at that time.

Now, I recall also that Dean Rusk, who was chairman of the task force, gave a very strong statement against that plan.

Have you read his statement?

Secretary BENSON. No; I haven't read his statement in full. I understood he was in favor of this plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Let me read you

Secretary BENSON. Someone told me he was.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. What he said.

Secretary BENSON. I've just been informed-
Mr. FOUNTAIN. He said

33798-53--8

Secretary BENSON. Excuse me. I was going to add that Mr. Roberts just commented that Dean Rusk testified in support of the present plan before the Senate committee.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Let me read you what he said before the Senate committee. He said:

The record of a previous attempt during the years to secure a more effective, economical organization of this and other departments of the executive branch of the Government shows that the absence of specific directives places the Secretary in a very weak position with regard to vested interests in and outside of the Department.

He then concluded:

We, as former members of the Agriculture task force, believe that Reorganization Plan No. 4 should be rejected and that specific directives should be provided by the Congress to effectuate the basic principles and recommendations of the Commission. I am advised that legislation is now being prepared to accomplish this objective.

And in addition to that statement, you now have in your Department, I assume, very competent men-Mr. Davis, Mr. Short, Mr. Morse, and others who were very vigorous in their opposition to Reorganization Plan No. 4, and they spoke in a language and made arguments which I do not believe the additions to this particular plan could possibly eliminate. I cannot conceive of the reasoning which they offered at that time not being the same reasoning at the present time.

Now, Mr. Davis, Mr. Short, Mr. Morse, and Mr. Coke are all in favor of this Reorganization Plan No. 2?

Secretary BENSON. So far as I know my staff is united in its support of this plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Of course, at the time they made these statements I believe Mr. Davis was executive secretary of the National Council of Farm Cooperatives

Secretary BENSON. I think that's right.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. And Mr. Short was vice president of the American Farm Bureau Federation, and I believe Mr. Morse was connected with the Doane Agricultural Service.

Secretary BENSON. I think that is correct.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Now, those organizations which they represented at that time, I understand, are in favor of this particular plan.

Secretary BENSON. Well, I couldn't say as to the Doane Agricultural Service, Mr. Fountain. I understand the Farm Bureau has testified in support of it, and I believe the National Council also.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. For the purposes of the record, Mr. Benson, and to invite it to your attention, I want to read you just a portion of what Mr. Davis and Mr. Short said. Mr. Davis 'said in 1950 before the Senate committee:

We do not feel that plan No. 4 moves in that direction. We feel that it leaves too much open to discretion and too much latitude for the people who are carrying it out.

At the present time our basic agricultural policy is in more or less a state of flux, and I imagine it's somewhat in that position at the present time now.

The farm plan that would be the basic structure for the next several years is not definitely crystalized. There are various plans that are up for discussion, and it seems to us that it is very difficult and unwise to try to reorganize the department until we know what kind of farm plan the Department is to carry

out.