a responsibility, involving as it does the charge of one-fifth of the human race. A mistake made by our Government might cost the lives of millions of people, and we ought to be glad to devolve some of this responsibility on the people of the country themselves. The previous Under Secretary (Sir John Gorst) admitted that India was under despotic Government. No doubt it is far humaner than that of Russia for example, but it is equally destitute of any trace of representation. It is surely time that this country, which has set the example of Constitutional Government to all the countries of the world, should begin to engraft its own institutions on India. Our system of Government there is only provisional; it cannot last; it must be modified sooner or later, and now, when we are in a time of peace, there is a good opportunity. There is no fear of invasion by Russia at present; but if ever there should be, we shall have to rely on the loyalty of the natives of India, and then we should have to give in a hasty and ungracious manner those concessions which we may now grant considerately and graciously. I hope the Government will give something like an assurance that they will take the generous view put upon the Bi by the right hon. Member for Midlothian, and should they do so, I believe there will be great satisfaction when the news reaches India to-morrow.

not be pleasing to our amour propre, | India. It is too great and too undivided we will discover for the first time that India is full of real grievances, and of some real wrongs as well, and we ought to let them have a legitimate outlet instead of sitting on the safety valve and risking an explosion. I agree entirely with the view that our Government in India is much too expensive. It is far too much arranged in the interests of European employés. The land is exhausted by a wretched system of agriculture, in some degree the result of the revenue system we have laid down. I doubt that India is not getting richer but poorer, and that the peasantry are loaded up to the lips with debt. And all these grievances need to have an outlet, need to be discussed, faced, and honestly dealt with in place of being hidden and veiled over with optimistic statements. I feel sure if we allow in India the full light of publicity to be thrown upon all the dark corners of our Government, we shall immensely improve that Government, immensely increase our hold on the country, and take a position 100 years hence very much stronger than it would otherwise be. I am told it is very difficult to devise any elective system. I admit you cannot have a complete system any way analogous to what exists in England or America. But why should we not allow a certain number of large cities, through their existing Municipalities, to elect a certain number of Members to the various Legislatures? I think this would be an excellent thing, and I believe it would work perfectly well and form a basis which we could afterwards enlarge. I have no belief in the possibility of any system for India corresponding to universal suffrage; the country is utterly unfit

(10.18.) MR. O. V. MORGAN (Battersea): I am in the position of a distinguished Member of this House who said that a three months' visit to India only made him aware of his great ignorance of that country. I feel in that position after three visits. On the for it; it must have an intermediate system resting on existing bodies and whole I like the Bill; I think it is a existing associations. I think we could step in advance, and that is a very not do better than adopt Lord great deal, for in dealing with a country Dufferin's suggestions. He recom-like India we have to be very cautious. mended a tentative scheme of election. The Bill increases the numbers When a Viceroy, so essentially Conservative, recommends such a plan, surely the British Parliament will be willing to endorse it. I feel the enormous responsibility that rests upon the people of this country for the government of

and powers of the Members of the Legislative Councils; it gives them power to discuss the Budget and to put questions to what we may call the Ministers. I think that, perhaps, is as important as anything, because at the

were

present time there are certain Indian 1shire (Mr. S. Smith), though I do not newspapers which are never happy un- think there is so much poverty and sufless making false statements against fering in India as he has depicted; the Government. The Government will the agricultural population were last now be able, in answer to questions, to year able to export large quantities admit or deny these statements, and of their produce at remunerative the natives will get to know the real prices. There are many difficulties state of the case. I should have been in the way of giving Representative glad to see some change in regard to the Government to India, but I am glad Indian Council in London. It is anti- the attempt is going to be made in a quated and its Members are antiquated, small way. It is wise to introduce the because a man who has left India for representative principle, because the more than ten years is not in touch educated classes are largely increasing with the present state of affairs. I was in number, many are educated in there ten years ago, and was much England and go back to India with struck last winter with the great change English ideas, and they would become that had taken place during that period. more English still if they were admitted I believe no country in the world has to the friendship of the resident English changed so much in ten years. The people. I was sorry to see the absolute Members of the Council, though indifference with which they eminent men, retired from the Civil treated by the English people. Perhaps Service long since, and there is no this change in the form of GovernRepresentative of Indian opinion, or even ment will bring the two classes of commerce, on the Council, and that nearer to each other. I was pleased may be the reason why the Government with the speech of the right hon. of India has been so slow in the con- Member for Midlothian, and I hope the struction of railways. There is great Government will give give us some diversity of opinion among the natives further assurance as to their intentions. as to Representative Government. The If the Government give an answer that Hindoos think it should be on an educa- is at all satisfactory, I hope the hon. tional basis; the commercial interest Gentleman will not press his Amendthink it should be on an Income ment to a Division. Tax franchise; while the Maho*MR. CURZON: Ithink the House will medans, who form one-third of the whole population, are not in favour of agree that we have now arrived at the it at all. Their reasons are that they period when this Debate may well close. are not SO well educated as the I do not think the Government has any Hindoos, having neglected their oppor- cause to be dissatisfied with the course tunities, though they are now sending the Debate has taken. We have had a their sons to school, and that they number of interesting and valuable are outnumbered by the Hindoos. The Parsees are about equally divided on speeches from hon. Members who are the point. I had a most interesting fully qualified, by experience or resiconversation with a man in Bombay, dence in India, to deal with these queswho may be considered the only true tions. I was glad, Sir, to observe in all representative of the working classes. these speeches that the importance of He was formerly an operative, but this Bill has been recognised; and, in through his education became the fact, there has been no attempt on spokesman of his class, and publishes a either side of the House to underrate newspaper in their interest. In reply it. The hon. Member for Oldham to my questions he said he hated the went so far as to say it was the most National Congress, as it was a Brahmin important Bill which had been intromovement. I said it was rather a Ben-duced since the Government of India galee Baboo movement. He replied that the Bengalee Baboos were the enemies of the working classes as much as the Brahmins. I agree generally with the remarks of the hon. Member for Flint-a hostile character-has been directed

was taken over by the Crown. I was further interested to observe that in the various speeches no serious criticism certainly no criticism of

Mr. O. V. Morgan

against the specific reforms and names, as the hon. Baronet knows, of changes introduced by this Bill. The concession of the right of financial criticism, of the right of asking questions, and, finally, the addition to the Members of the Supreme and Provincial Councils, have all met with the approbation of this House. I do not think I have heard a single remark to the contrary. I am, therefore, relieved from the necessity of making another speech on the general provisions of the Bill, and it will only be my duty to make a few observations in reply to particular remarks or queries that have fallen from hon. Members in the course of the Debate. I do not think, Sir, it will be necessary to follow with any great minuteness the hon. Member for North Manchester, who moved the Amendment. He indulged in many interesting and picturesque observations about the National Congress of India, whose meetings he is more fortunate than myself in having attended. I do not think I am called upon to follow the hon. Gentleman through the whole of his speech, but I am bound to notice one statement, for he was guilty of a serious misrepresentation when he said that the system of nomination, as applied to as applied to the various Councils in India, is at the present moment a fraud. I am convinced that if he had a wider experience of India he would not have made that statement. There are hon. Gentlemen in this House-at least, two hon. Members-who have filled the position of Governors in India, and I am certain that they can bear me out in the remark that the object of every Governor in India is as far as possible to persuade, and to induce, representatives of even advanced political opinion to join those Councils. [Sir R. TEMPLE: Hear, hear!] That, undoubtedly, was the case with the hon. Baronet who cheers me, and equally so it was the case with the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General when he was a Governor in India. And if the hon. Member applies his remarks to the present time, I would like to ask him whether in his knowledge of India he has never heard the names of Peeri Mukuji or Cristodas Pal? These are

very prominent representatives of the advanced section of public opinion in India, and the gentlemen who bear these names were lately upon the Council of the Governor General. In the face of these facts, I am certain that the hon. Member will see that he was, at any rate, misinformed. Then the hon. Member complains of what he calls the inadequate addition that is proposed to the Legislative Councils, and he spoke of the addition proposed by this Bill-an addition both to the minimum and the maximum number of Members-as a modest and inadequate addition. It is the case that Lord Dufferin, whose views have been freely quoted in the course of this Debate, did not himself think that an addition to the numerical strength of the Supreme Council was required; and the problem that you have to face in India is this-not that you have a number of men who are anxious and willing to join the Councils, but that there is a difficulty in obtaining men with both the qualifications of willingness and intelligence who will surrender that portion of their time that is required forthe important business of these Councils. I doubt very much whether the hon. Member has a clear idea of the business of the Supreme Legislative Council in India. It is fortunately free from the system that prevails in this House. There is no Queen's Speech or programme of legislation at the beginning of each year. Contrary to the principle that we adopt, the Legislative Council only legislates when legislation is required, and that does not happen invariably, as Members might be led to suppose from the practice of this House. What is the process of legislation in the Council of the Viceroy? Before a measure is ever introduced into the Council-a proposal which very likely relates to some particular part or Province of India-it is referred to the Government of that Presidency or Province, and inquiries of a most wide and comprehensive character are made by competent persons. The Bill is then introduced into the Council and read a second time, and next passes to a Select Committee of experts, who are

really responsible for the final form in | Member for Elgin and Nairn (Mr. which it goes before the Council. The Keay), has argued that the matter hon. Member should further remember that the Legislative Council of the Viceroy does not, as does this Parliament, sit for six, seven, or eight months in the year. Legislation is only carried on during the Calcutta season. I think the hon. Member will see, therefore, that there is less need for a large addition to the numbers or a larger attendance than he at first supposed. But if he is unwilling to accept my words on the subject I should like to quote to him the opinion of Lord Northbrook on this question of the number of Members. Lord Northbrook spoke as follows in another place: