MR. SPEAKER: I must remind the hon. Member that it is a Motion for Adjournment which is before the House. measures, would reach this Bill. Of bour Authorities as to the firing in course I should not be in order if on Cork Harbour. this Motion I attempted to discuss the Military Lands Consolidation Bill, nor can I say I am well acquainted with its contents, but I may observe that while the Financial Secretary describes it merely as a Consolidation Bill, the right hon. Gentleman on this side (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), who is well acquainted with the measure, says it is not merely a Consolidation Bill. It appears it does include an alteration in the law. There is a difference of opinion, and there should be a full statement of MR. FLYNN: The fact that I am of the Bill is in itself an argument for precluded from going into the merits Adjournment. The Bill contains much controversial matter which cannot be disposed of to-night, and if debated at all it must occupy a couple of hours. (11.49.) MR. PHILIPPS (Lanark, the contents and discussion if necessary Mid.): I hope the Motion will be before we dispose of the Second Read-accepted. I know that the hon. Meming. The short time at our disposal ber for Northampton desires to speak does not permit of a full examination of this Bill of 30 clauses, and I think an adjournment now is only reasonable. (11.47.) MR. JEFFREYS (Hants, Basingstoke): I may be allowed to point out the fact that there is one clause in the Bill, the 25th, excluding the New Forest from the scope of the Bill, and I have reason to know from local knowledge that local opinion is in favour of the Bill. (11.47.) MR. MORTON (Peterborough): I should like to be able to advise my hon. Friend to withdraw his Motion, but first I should like to know whether the Bill is to be referred to a Committee of seven Members, or whether it will simply go before the usual Select Committee of four Members? If the Bill goes before a Hybrid Committee with an assurance that all interests will be considered, perhaps we might allow the Second Reading to be taken now. The New Forest people may be protected, but there are other commoners who require pro tection. am (11.48.) MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.): I on the Bill, and naturally he did not expect that the Orders of the Day would be disposed of in a few minutes that this Bill might be reached. The hon. Member for Hants (Mr. Jeffreys) has spoken of the New Forest, but the district is not within his constituency, and I should be more satisfied if the Member representing them expressed the opinion of the commoners there. In these 30 clauses questions arise that concern the whole country from Scotland to the New Forest, and I do not think we ought to be asked to dispose of the Second Reading in this hurried and unexpected manner. (11.50.) MR. BRODRICK: May I be allowed to explain that the War Office have nothing to gain by pressing the Bill forward? Every power the Bill contains the War Office already have; nothing in the Bill extends those powers, and whatever change is proposed is in the direction of a limitation of the power of the War Office. Should the House decline to proceed with the Bill, the position will be that the War Office will have more extended powers than they would have in the future if this Bill were passed. So far as the Government are concerned, they have no reason to press the Bill. Our sorry I cannot agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Morton). There are clauses which, as applied to Ireland, require very very serious consideration.desire is to meet objections raised by There are powers to be given to the War Office over foreshores and tidal waters adjacent, and there have been very serious complaints as to the method of carrying on torpedo practice. There is a contention now going on between the War Office and the Har-mittee. Mr. S. T. Evans hon. Members on the other side to the Ranges Act passed last year. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) admits that those objections are met, and I hope, therefore, that the Bill will be allowed to go to the Com (11.51.) DR. TANNER: The hon." Gentleman must have raison de quoi-he should have told us all about it at the commencement of the Debate. Have we not often found the Government trying to smuggle a Bill through late at night? The Bill applies to Ireland, and it must be debated if there are objections to it. I think the Government should be satisfied with the progress they have made with their business to-night, and I hope they will not allow their desire to get the better of their good sense. : (11.52.) MR. WALLACE (Edinburgh, E.) I hope the Debate will not expire in this uninteresting manner. I have listened to the reduplicated explanations of the Financial Secretary, and, accepting them in the spirit in which they are offered, I cannot say they carry conviction to my mind. They did not seem consistent with themselves or calculated to promote the object he professedly has in view. I understand that the last argument of the hon. Gentleman was directed to this point; that if he lost on a Division his Department would be gainers. Well, it seems to me that on the face of it that is paradoxical and to a certain extent unintelligible. I cannot see if it is to the interest of the Department he represents to lose a Division why he should persist in persuasion against proceeding to a Division. That the Bill, should be hurried on in itself excites suspicion. Many hon. Members interested have left the House under the impression the Bill would not be taken, and I am not free to assume that were they present they would be influenced in favour of the Bill by the considerations the hon. Gentleman has advanced. If the hon. Gentleman had been officially convinced he would have put his views in a way more consistent with his first argument. (11.57.) Mr. A. J. BALFOUR rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put." Question put, "That the Question be now put." The House divided:-Ayes 133; Noes 63.-(Div. List, No. 54.) (12.10.) Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned." The House divided-Ayes 56; Noes 140.-(Div. List, No. 55.) (12.20.) Mr. A. J. BALFOUR claimed, "That the Original Question be now put. MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W.): On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I wish is in Order in taking that course? to ask you if the right hon. Gentleman MR. SPEAKER: There is no neces sity for a further Motion, the Division already taken lead up to a decision on the Main Question. MR. SEXTON: What I wish to *MR. SPEAKER: There can be no further debate on the Main Question. The right hon. Gentleman having moved that the Question be now put, and that being carried applies to the Original Motion. The proceeding is in order. I am acting under the Standing Order of the House. (12.20.) Original Question put accordingly, "That the Bill be now read a second time. The House divided -Ayes 153; Noes 44.-(Div. List, No. 56.) Bill read a second time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee." --(Mr. Brodrick.) COLONEL NOLAN: I should like to speak upon that Motion. MR. SPEAKER: Further proceedings stand over if objection is taken. It being after Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed to-morrow at Two of the clock. SHORT TITLES BILL [Lords]. (No. 227.) Read a second time, and committed for Thursday. SAVINGS BANKS ACT (1891) AMEND MENT BILL.-(No. 210.) Outdoor Relief last during the twelve months non-resident paupers to be included only in the Returns of the unions to which they were Order for Second Reading read, and chargeable."-- (Mr. Mahony.) discharged. Bill withdrawn. LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888 (COM PENSATION APPEALS). Return ordered "Of all Appeals to the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury under the Compensation Clauses of 'The Local Government 1888,' in consequence of County Councils having refused (a) to grant, (b) to assess the amount of Compensation (as in the case of the Treasurer of Middlesex) to transferred and other Officers who have suffered loss by the operation of the Act, giving in such Return (1) the annual amount of alleged loss and length of service; (2) the amounts of Compensation asked; (3) the result of the Appeals; (4) the reasons for the Grants or Refusals."-(Mr. Dixon-Hartland.) ARMY (OFFICERS' SERVICE). Address for the "Return showing the length of service (from date of first commission) of Lieutenants promoted to Captains, Captains promoted to Majors, and Majors promoted to Lieutenant Colonels, in each year respectively for 1886, 1887, 1888, 1889, 1890, and 1891, in the following British services, namely, Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Cavalry, and Infantry of the Line."-(Mr. King.) POOR LAW (INDOOR AND OUTDOOR Return ordered "Showing, in respect of each Union in Ireland, the number of persons of each sex of 65 years of age and upwards, and the number under 65 years of age who had attained 16 years of age, and the number of children under 16 years of age, in receipt from the Boards of Guardians of Indoor Relief and Outdoor Relief respectively on the 1st day of January, 1892, and at any time during the twelve months ended at Lady Day, 1892: "In order to avoid duplicate recokonings, persons relieved during the twelve months to be entered in the Return according to their ages when they were last relieved during the twelve months, and as Indoor and Outdoor Paupers according as they received Indoor or HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, 29th March, 1892. POST CARDS. QUESTION-OBSERVATIONS. LORD LAMINGTON: I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government whether cards conforming in size, weight, and shape with Post Office regulations will be allowed transmission through the post with an adhesive halfpenny stamp, as is already permitted when the matter written on the cards is identical, as in the case of circulars; whether VISCOUNT CROSS: The answer I have to give to the noble Lord is to the following effect:-The adoption of the system of stamping the hour of collection in figures upon all letters passing through the post would not tend to greater certainty or rapidity in the transmission of the letters, and would not be more effective than the present system of postmarks in enabling the Post Office to trace delays; nor would it show the actual hour of posting or the course of the letter, which might have to pass through several offices. It could only show the hour at which the letters were brought into the office at which the first stamping took place. Figures were, it is true, at one time introduced pense to the Government, or whether into the London postmarks, but the they make a profit on the sale; and, in practice was found to give rise to a the latter case, what justification there good deal of misunderstanding on the is for the Government making a profit part of the public, and to lead to comon the sale of stationery; what objec-plaints which had no foundation. It tion there is to the public supplying was on this account eventually abantheir own cards; and whether, as the doned. question has been some years under the consideration of the Departmental Committee of the Post Office, they have yet come to a decision? the actual cost of the cards is an ex COUNTY COUNCILS AND BILLS, QUESTION-OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, it happened that last year on more than one occasion Bills were brought forward which affected county finance and county administration in Scotland, and that those Bills passed, or very nearly passed through Parliament without the County Councils having had an opportunity of pressing any opinion upon them. I brought the matter under the notice of the Secretary of State for Scotland last year, and he told me that he would take steps to convey the informa ex tion in future in such cases to the County Councils. My Lords, during the present Session one Bill has been introduced and passed through this House so rapidly that it was impossible for the County Councils to consider it, and there are pending in the other House at the present time Bills, some introduced by private Members, and I think one, at all events, introduced by the Government which also the County Councils have had no opportunity of considering. I should like therefore to ask the Secretary for Scotland what steps have been taken to ensure that G CONVEYANCING AND LAW OF PRO- all Bills specially affecting counties in | and Bridges (Scotland) Bill, to which Scotland should be brought under the my noble Friend referred, is a Bill that notice of the County Councils in Scot- affects the County Councils very conland before being passed by Parliament? siderably I admit; but, as I stated to *THE SECRETARY FOR SCOT- your Lordships at the time, I was LAND (the Marquess of LOTHIAN): I unable to postpone that Bill, even if suppose the noble Earl is referring to Amendments might be desired, because what I stated last year on the Amend- it is absolutely necessary that the Bill ment to the Public Health (Scotland) should pass through Parliament without Act Amendment Act when I said that any delay whatever. If that Bill had I had given instructions that if been referred to the County Councils it possible such Bills should be dis- would not have been possible to pass tributed to the County Councils before it before June or July, which would they passed through Parliament. I have been much too late for the purstated at the same time that it was not poses with which it is intended the part of my official duty to do so. I Bill should deal. Therefore, while I may state that I had made arrange- am afraid I cannot undertake to send ments and hoped it would have been all Bills to the County Councils for possible to carry them into effect, but consideration, my answer to the noble I found, in endeavouring to do so, that Earl is that I will do what I have really in practice it was not feasible. hitherto done-take every proper step to I think the noble Earl will agree with ascertain their views upon any Bill me that, unless this proposal which he that may be brought before Parlianow makes could be carried out in its ment. entirety, it would be very undesirable to try it at all; because the County Councils would rely upon the Scotch Office to send them all Bills, whether private or public, and, if they did not get them, they would suppose that the Bills had either been dropped or were not to be pressed. I think that would be a very undesirable state of affairs. My Lords, the fact is that it is quite impossible for my Office to undertake this duty. What had always been done previously to the passing of the Local Government (Scotland) Act was that those interested in any Bill, the Commissioners of Supply, either through agents in London or through Members of Parliament who might be interested in them, always had the Reported from the Standing ComBills sent down to them for considera-mittee, with an amendment to each tion; and I cannot see why that sys- Bill; the Report thereof to be received tem should not now be carried into on Thursday next. effect. I am afraid I cannot undertake, on the part of the Government, to forward every Bill, either public or private, to the County Councils for their consideration. At the same time I hope the noble Earl will not misunderstand me; I trust he will bear me out in saying that I have consulted, as my desire is on all possible occasions to consult, the views of the County Councils before legislation is passed-I mean in all practical and proper ways. My Lords, the Roads The Earl of Camperdown Reported from the Standing Committee with amendments; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 55.) POOR LAW (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL. Reported from the Standing Committee without amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next. LABOURERS (IRELAND) ALLOTMENTS HARES BILL. LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ORDER (GLASGOW, &C.) BILL [H.L.] A Bill to confirm an Order of the Boundary Commissioners for Scotland, relating to the burgh and city of Glasgow, the burgh of Renfrew, and to the parishes of Cathcart, Eastwood, Govan, and Renfrew, in the Counties of Lanark and Renfrew-Was presented by the Lord Ker (M. Lothian); read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 56.) House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock |