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can be reasonably given to County has every reason to believe that the Councils and Town Councils, with Committee stage of the Bill might be whatever restrictions it may be neces- finished to-morrow. I propose, there sary to impose for protection owing to fore, to assent to the Motion for Adtheir statutory powers. I would suggest journment on that understanding. But, to the right hon. Gentleman that I before I do so, it might, perhaps, be think it would save time if he gave his convenient that we should divide upon assent to a Motion to report Progress, the present Amendment, because my in order that the necessary words might hon. Friend behind me assures me that be put down upon the Paper by the he must take a Division upon it, and, Government; and then I think I shall although I shall go into a different have authority to say, on the part of Lobby from that which he will go into my hon. Friends, that there will be himself, I think we ought to gratify little difficulty in the safe passage of him to-night before we break off. the Bill through Committee. Although (11.13.) DR. CAMERON: I think there may be considerable discussion the House should not take a Division, on some other points, there is no reason because, so far as I am concerned, I to doubt that the Committee stage of consider the proposal of the right the Bill will go through the House hon. Gentleman as extremely satisto-morrow.

factory. I explained my views (11.10.) MR. DUFF: I think the with regard to the provisions of First Lord of the Treasury has met us this Bill. I desire to see

as much in a very conciliatory spirit. There is as possible of this money go to the one point to which I should like relief of local burdens, because I wish to call the right hon. Gentleman's to have an end put to this eternal seeattention, and it is simply this: the saw which gives rise to fresh equivaAmendment to Clause 5 to be proposed lents and fresh claims. The right hon. by the hon. Member for Aberdeen Gentleman now proposes to take a step would, to a certain extent, meet my which I think will lead to this £60,000 case; but, as the words of the clause being well expended. I regard it as stand at present, they would not meet part of the compromise that so much my case. I want to bring under the of this money should be devoted to notice of the right hon. Gentleman one secondary education, so much to the case; it is the case of my own county, Universities, so much to the Parochial Banffshire. The Harbour Authorities Boards, and so much to the County have no legal power to levy rates, but Councils. It seems to me that we they levy voluntary rates. As the Bill should have a very one-sided comstands at present, it would be quite out promise, if we were going to have all of the power of the County Council togive the compromising in one direction. anything towards those harbours which *(11.14.) MR. HOZIER: Do I underhave a voluntary rate. On the other stand that the hon. Members who hand, if the Amendment of the hon. propose to increase the grant for Member for Aberdeen were carried, it secondary education are not going to would meet my case, because it would move their Amendments ? (“No!') If have the effect of placing harbours, that that be so, I shall withdraw my Amendhave legal powers for levying rates and ment. Does the hon. Member for Aberharbours that levy voluntary rates in deen intend to withdraw his Amendment the same position. I hope that point for increasing the grant for secondary will not escape the attention of the education or not? (No.") Certainly right hon. Gentleman.

not? Then I beg to press my Amend(11.11.) MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I ment to a decision. thought I had already explained to the Question put, and agreed to. hon. Gentleman that provision for such (11.17.) MR. BRYCE: I wish to ask a public work as a harbour is already the right hon. Gentleman whether he made in the Bill. I take note of what will put down the Amendments which fell from the right hon. Gentleman the he proposes, so that when we meet at Member for the Stirling Burghs, that two o'clock to-morrow we may see them if the Committee should now adjourn, and have some little time to consider speaking on behalf of his friends, he them?

Mr. Campbell-Bannerman



MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I shall do of the Public Service to another, and it my best to carry out the very reason- thus happens that in the transfer able wish of the hon. Gentleman. from one branch to another the indi

(11.18.) DR. TANNER: About this vidual may lose the whole right to the reporting Progress. During the course pension which has accrued in conseof the evening we have been told by quence of his earlier service. Therefore, many of our Scotch Friends that the when he comes to retire, in consewhole time of the House would be quence of sickness or age, the Treataken up discussing the provisions of sury is unable to include, in estithis Bill till twelve o'clock to-night; mating the amount of his pension, the and there are certain other contentious earlier service which has been permeasures awaiting discussion which are formed by him in another branch of bound to meet with substantial opposi- the Service. That is one matter which tion. I would therefore recommend is dealt with in this Bill. The other our Scottish Friends, who happen to be is an extension of the 6th section of here in such force this evening, to go the Act of 1887. That section provides on with their business instead of post- that rules should be made as to the poning the discussion of this Bill and conditions under which military and taking up the nice bait offered to them naval officers drawing non-effective pay by the First Lord of the Treasury. I may be employed in the Civil branch do hope that, instead of postponing the of the Public Service. This Bill discussion (cries of “ Divide !”) and enables similar rules to be made as to pursuing a policy of procrastination, the officers drawing Indian non-effecthe Members from Scotland will tive pay—that is non-effective pay attend to their business and carry from Indian, and not from Imperial,

this Debate until the hour funds. Those the only two, of twelve' o'clock, when no other points in the Bill, and I hope the Public Business can be proceeded with. House will read it a second time. I do hope a sensible view will be taken

Motion made, and Question proposed, by hon. Members sitting above the

" That the Bill be now read a second Gangway on this side, and by hon. time." -(Sir J. Gorst.) Members on that side of the House. I take this opportunity of opposing the *(11.38.) MR. MORTON (PeterMotion that you report Progress. borough) : I hope the right hon. GenMotion agreed to.

tleman will allow the Second Reading

of this Bill to be postponed, because it Committee report Progress; to sit was not at all expected that it would again To-morrow, at Two of the clock. come on to-night. I understand from

the right hon. Gentleman the Member SUPERANNUATION ACTS AMEND- for Wolverhampton that the Bill is MENT (No. 2.) BILL.-(No. 275.)

altogether opposed to the recommendations of the Royal Commission that

sat on this matter, and that, therefore, Order for Second Reading read.

it is objectionable. Unless the right *(11.25.) THE SECRETARY TO THE hon. Gentleman consents to postpone TREASURY (Sir J. GORST, Chatham) : the Bill in order to give the Member In moving the Second Reading of this for Wolverhampton an opportunity of Bill I shall have to explain to the House discussing it, I shall have to go into that it is not a General Superannuation its merits now. So far as I am Bill. It is a proposal to do away personally concerned, I object to this with two distinct difficulties which Bill, because I object to pensions altohave arisen in the administration of gether. There is no doubt at all that the Acts. There are many branches the time is coming when this question of of the Public Service which are regu- pensions will have to be considered not lated by special, distinct Acts. They pro-only by Parliament, but by all other vide for pensions on retirement through authorities in the country, because, if sickness or long service to officers of those you are going to pension one class of Departments, but no provision is made men, you will have presently to pension in the case of a transfer from one branch all your servants, whether they are


working men or not. Therefore, before attention has been called to them, we go on increasing the pensions of a our constituents have complained of particular class, the country ought to our allowing such Bills to be rushed have an opportunity of considering the through without discussion. I do not whole question. I believe our system wish to waste time. I suggest that we of pensions, as well as doing harm to should at once postpone the Bill, and the taxpayers, does great harm to the proceed with other business to which officials and servants, as it teaches the same objection does not arise; but them to be improvident and prevents that proposition is refused. I will them saving when they have the not myself take up more time, but I trust opportunity. The right hon. Gentle- that other Members will take this opporman who moved the Second Reading tunity of letting the right hon. Gentleof this Bill has given us very little man know their opinions respecting explanation, if any at all. He has not the Bill itself, and respecting this told us, so far as I can understand, why unfortunate attempt to push it through this Bill is to be passed, or why it has at a late hour, when there can be no not been passed before if it is necessary. discussion, and when it was not anticiProbably it is that there are some pated that the Bill would be taken. I favourites of the Government for whom have to confess that I do not properly arrangemenis are being made by this understand this Bill; and, though that Bill. That it is not an unusual thing. I confession may raise a laugh, let me have known within my own recollec- observe that the right hon. Gentleman tion Acts of Parliament passed almost has not given us an explanation, and purposely to give pensions to particular the only fact I gather from the Bill individuals, and this appears to be itself is that it is a proposal to take a Bill for the purpose of increasing more money from the taxpayers. I the pensions of certain individuals. think it would be only right that some No one thought the Bill would come deference should be paid to the wish of on to-night, and I know it is the wish the right hon. Gentleman the Member of the right hon. Gentleman the Mem- for Wolverhampton--who was a Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. ber of the Royal Commission that Fowler) that it should be postponed ; reported in 1888—that the Bill should but the Secretary to the Treasury be postponed. seems determined to push the Bill SIR J. GORST: I may be allowed to through. I understand from the right remark, upon these references of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wol- hon. Member, that the right hon. verhampton that those who are in- Gentleman the Member for Wolverterested in this matter desire to follow hampton has been in the House this the recommendations of the Royal evening, and that neither to-night nor Commission as a whole, and not to at any time has the right hon. Gentledeal with the question piecemeal in man expressed any desire that the Bill this way. I think I am justified in should be postponed. Had he exopposing the Bill until the House has pressed such a desire I should have the whole question before it. What been quite willing to accede to it. on earth is the good of appointing a *MR. MORTON: I can at once settle Royal Commission and going to the that point. The right hon. Gentleman trouble and expense of an inquiry if we the Member for Wolverhampton redo not make use of the work of the quested me to ask the right hon. Commission ? As I understand, the Gentleman in charge of the Bill recommendations of the Commission to agree to postpone it, so I may are utterly ignored, and I must say I take the right hon. Gentleman's own think we want some better evidence words and expect it will be postponed. than we have had to-night before we I say distinctly the right hon. rashly pass the Second Reading of this Gentleman desired me, if the Bill Bill. I know, unfortunately, that at came at a late hour, to ask times Bills of this nature, unexplained that it should be postponed, so that we and not understood by the bulk of may have a proper opportunity of hear. Members, have been allowed to pass at ing all about it. Therefore I claim, on a late hour ; and subsequently, when the Secretary of the Treasury's own

Mr. Morton



we all

words, that the Bill shall be

« For reckoning services according to the deferred.

rules under the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to

1837, and for granting the same superannua*(11.45.) MR. SEYMOUR KEAY tion allowance or gratuity to any person as (Elgin and Nairn): I do not at all might have been granted to him if his whole

service had been in the public office from wonder that many Members on this which he ultimately retires. side of the House are inc lined to view Now, this Bill is especially framed with some suspicion the bringing for- to extend to India, and ward of a Bill like this at such an hour. know that offices are held there I may instance a case that occurred by public servants, some of whose only a few nights ago, when the Go- salaries for the time are enormous. vernment brought forward another I am not going to say whether these mysterious Bill called the Accumula- salaries are, in my judgment, too high tions Bill, and it turned out upon or not, but there is no question about examination that the Bill was intro- it that some appointments of enormous duced for no other purpose than that profit are held under the Government of relieving the finances of certain indi- of India. Now, the right hon. Gentleviduals belonging to this and the other man, so far as I could gather, did not House. Under the circumstances, and give the least hint as to how this Sube as the Bill deals with pensions, I feel section 2 would apply with regard to impelled myself to attach some sort of the higher offices held for short periods suspicion to the proceeding when the by Members of the Government of Government move the Second Reading India Service. For exampleat this hour of the night. The right SIR J. GORST: It does not apply at. hon. Gentleman in charge has certainly all. discussed one or two provisions of the *MR. SEYMOUR KEAY: The right Bill to which no objection can be taken, hon. Gentleman says it does not apply For instance , he has told us that under at all, and, of course, if he says that, I certain Acts of Parliament public must accept his statement. But I read servants, if they change their offices, the heading of the Bill, and find that lose the pension which would attach the Bill is described as to to the offices they formerly filled, "Amond the Acts relating to Superannuation and I do not suppose

that any

Allowances and Gratuities to persons in the Member on either side of the House

Public Service" will raise any objection to such a which, I fancy, may be otherwise just provision of the Bill, which called pensionsmerely provides for the pension being

so far as respects the computation of succalculated on the continuous service. cessive service in different offices where not all The right hon. Gentleman said, or so I

subject to the Superannuation Acts."

And then it goes on to sayunderstood him, that there will be a certain amount of relief to the tax- 6 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, to employ

"And as respects the application of Section payers of the country, inasmuch as ments of profit under the Government of services of certain officers drawing non

India.” effective pay will be utilised in em. I have not recently read the Superployment for the State. I have not had annuation Act, 1887, and it is possible time to read the Acts referred to, but, that it does not embrace these high anyhow, I do not object to that provi- offices. If I understood the right hon. sion. Then I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, I will accept his Gentleman to say, or imply, that in his statement, and say no more on that speech he had exhausted the provisions subject. I desire to condense what I of the Bill. But, so far as I could have to say, and I ask him specifically gather, he did not even touch in al —will he kindly say whether or no, or sentence that part of the Bill which to what extent, if any, this Sub-section appears to me I speak under all cor-2 will affect, for example, pensions, rection, not having thoroughly ex. gratuities and allowances which will amined the subject to be a matter of be received on retirement by Indian major importance. I mean Sub-section officers of high standing, say, by Lord 2 of the first clause, wherein it is pro- Roberts, now Commander-in-Chief in vided that there shall be rules

India ?


SIR J. GORST: If the hon. Member | trying by this Bill to pay the men who desires an answer, I may say at once have done dirty work for them in the Bill does not in any way affect any Ireland. The Bill is to buy off men of pensions payable from the Revenues of the Colonel Caddell type, and so I India. It will only affect such pensions challenge the Bill, and I sincerely as are payable out of the Consolidated trust that every Irish Member in the Fund of the United Kingdom.

House will join me in condemning this *MR. SEYMOUR KEAY: Then I attempt.

This is not merely may ask in what respect the financial question of pensions, it is a question of part of the Bill applies to India ? In rewarding unworthy men for actions the Definition Clause (3) the Revenues unworthy of the Public Service, and of India are distinctly mentioned, and awarding still further pensions to the reference is made to the grant of a richer pensioned classes. The Govern. superannuation allowance or gratuity, ment adhere to the old Tory principle the remuneration of which may be paid of rewarding the rich. They had a out of

premonition yesterday in Hyde Park of .“(a) the Consolidated Fund of the United the verdict they will receive at the Kingdom: or (b) moneys provided by Parlia-General Election near at hand. The ment, or dealt with as appropriations in aid, or Bill, I say, is for paying the instruments (c) the Revenue of India

of injustice in our native land. As a and so forth.

matter of fact, every sensible man in the MR. MORTON : May I also ask House is against the system of pensions. what is meant by the words at the end Let the State pay its servants according of Clause 1,

to the value of services rendered, a “Provided that in cases affecting the sufficiency to enable them to make Revenue of India, the Secretary of State in provision for themselves and families Council of India shall determine the amount for old age and failing powers. This to be paid therefrom"?

Bill is to enable the Government to *SIR J. GORST: Those questions are select chosen individuals whose actions reserved for the Secretary of State in may have pleased the Government of Council only, on points affecting the the day, men such as Colonel Caddell Revenues of India. As I have said, the and others, who fill the office of Bill does not apply to officers whose Removable Magistrates in Ireland, men entire service has been under the Indian brought from the Army and Navy, Government, but only to those whose men who as my hon. Friend says have service has been divided between the received large salaries in India. Indian and Imperial Governments, and

It being midnight, Mr. SPEAKER who are pensionable from the Revenues proceeded to interrupt the Business. of the United Kingdom. The rules under Whereupon Sir J. GORST rose in his Section 6 of the Superannuation Act of place, and claimed to move " That the 1887 relate to officers retired from the Question be now put. Army and Navy who are employed in

MR. SPEAKER: The Motion for the the Civil Service of the United King- Second Reading of the Bill has only dom, and the object is to enable the been discussed for half an hour, but Treasury to make rules respecting the having regard to the manner in which retirement of those officers.

the opposition has been conducted, I MR. MORTON: But how about feel justified in putting the Question. sub-section 3 of Clause 1 ?

Question put, " That the Question (11.55.) DR. TANNER (Cork Co., be now put." Mid) : I object on principle, and as an (12.0.) The House divided :-Ayes Irishman, to this Bill. How comes it to 142: Noes 65.— (Div. List, No. 98.) pass that this responsible Government is trying in this shame-faced way to buy the Bill be now read a second time.”

Question put accordingly, the services of men who have behaved so shamefully in the Public Service

(12.15.) The House divided :-Ayes in my native land? The Government 149; Noes 51.-(Div. List, No. 99.) are evidently trying on a fin de siècle Bill read a second time, and comboom ; if the House will pardon a mitted for To-morrow at Two of the popular allusion, the Government are clock.

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