With

not be all the inconvenience of multi-
plying wires, taking up the streets, and
useless machinery which is inevitably
on the establishment of
attendant
It has been
competing companies.
suggested during the course of this
discussion that the Local Authorities
might be willing to undertake the
telephone business themselves. I see
nothing contrary to the Government
policy in such a proposal. If in any
particular town the telephone system
is not established, there is no reason
should not undertake
why they

lished

of the business of the Telephone Companies. The hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Provand) put two very pertinent questions to the hon. Member for Glasgow, who introduced this matter. He asked whether it was the intention of the hon. Member that we should buy up the whole of the Telephone Companies, or that the Government should compete freely without any compensation against the companies. On the point of buying up the companies, if the House were determined that that is the best way of proceeding, it would be found that an enormous it, and communication be estabexpense would be incurred. respect to the other matter, of course it would be impossible for the companies to compete, and it would be necessary to take some steps in the nature of money payments to the companies. I remember perfectly well what happened when the Telegraph Companies were bought up, and I shudder at the recollection of the enormous price which the Government had to pay under those circumstances when the private companies stood on their various rights. The public at that time were determined that the telegraphs telegraphs should be taken over, and the cost was immensely greater than it would have been if the matter had been approached with greater caution. I do not wish the Government to be placed in a similar position with regard to these telephones, and we have, on the other hand, to submit to the House a plan which I think combines the simplicity of Government control with the expansion which we may expect from private enterprise. My right hon. Friend has explained how the trunk lines would be taken in hand by the Government, leaving to the localities the working of the local exchanges. If this is done I believe the public will be better served than if the Government took over the whole business, because there would be competition in the localities to serve the public as well as it could be served; and the attitude we should take up towards the Local Authorities will ensure that when we are assured that a town is badly served, combe introduced by petition should another company, but where a town is sufficiently served there should Mr. Goschen

with the rest of the country through the trunk lines which would be in the hands of the State. But though I have spoken strongly against the Government taking more into its hands than is necessary, I think the time has come when it is absolutely indispensable for the Government to have the trunk lines in its hands, because, unless the Government have these trunk lines, we cannot have the competition which is desired by the country. If the companies retain these trunk lines it would be impossible that there should be fair competition. Why has the National Company got a practical monopoly over the other Because they have the companies? trunk lines in their hands, and any telephonic circle which is established is only half useful unless it can be put into telephonic communication with the whole of the rest of the country. The consequence is that if any particular locality is not connected with the trunk lines it is only half-served, and does not get the full benefit of the telephone. And so, in one sense, the Government by taking the trunk lines into their own hands can secure free trade in the localities. On the other hand, we wish the Local Authorities to exercise supervision. I do not know whether the House is aware of the powers which the Government possess in this matter, but there are powers under which they can act, and which render it unnecessary that any fresh Bill should be introduced. In the licence granted by the Government are these words

Nothing in these presents contained shall General from time to time to establish, prejudice or affect the right of the Postmaster extend, maintain, and work any system or systems of telegraphic communication."

Several hon. MEMBERS: Yes; tele- | public to be a convenient and sufficient form. We do not wish the graphic communication.

MR. GOSCHEN: That covers tele- arrangements of the Treasury to interphonic communication. I am not fere with the development of the This discussion sorry for the interruption, because it telephonic system. gives me an opportunity of explaining here that telephones are practically telegraphs, and it has been held that the same powers which the Government possess with respect to telegraphs they can apply to telephones. But I will read again this extract from the

|

for extension must be placed in the Scotland. Next door to the Scotch hands of those who are working the Office is the Home Secretary's Office; Post Office. At present the Government and the senior clerks in the Home secure all they can out of the Post Office are paid at the rate of from £700 Office telegraphs, whereas the Ex- to £800 a year. The senior clerks chequer ought to be content with a in the Scotch Office are paid at the fixed sum in the way of profit, and to rate of from £450 to £600 a year. allow the excess to be used by the There might be something in the arguPostmaster General for the prosecution ment of the Chancellor of the Excheof experiments or extensions in order quer and of the Treasury, that people that all possible advantages and in Scotland did not pay as much as facilities should be given to the public. they do here for either clothing or food; The Department should be worked to but here is an officer living in exactly some extent for the benefit of the public the same town and same street, who, as well as for profit. There should be in the English Office is paid £800 more elasticity in the arrangements a year, while in the Scotch Office he is which exist between the Postmaster paid £450 a year. I only want to point General and the Chancellor of the Ex- out that the argument used last year chequer. If the business is carried does not apply. I want to call the on by private companies, the profits go attention of the House to the Local to the shareholders, and the public get Government Vote for the three Kinglittle of the benefit, whereas if the Go- doms. The total amount of the Vote vernment had stepped in and bought for England is £162,049; for Ireland, the telephones, any profit that is made £133,792; and for Scotland, £9,117. would be devoted to the reduction of What I object to is that this is contaxes in some way, direct or indirect, and trary to the decision arrived at when the public would be eased in that matter. we agreed that one-half of the Probate Whether it would not be possible to and Licence Duties should be paid for work some part of the system by the purpose of cutting off these local arrangement with the Local Authorities elements-in fact, taking them away is a suggestion well worth considering; altogether from Supply; and still we but as the telephones are competing find, notwithstanding the fact that with the telegraphs, I think it would be England is getting half the Probate right to make a good mouthful of the and Licence Duties, we are here still business, and for the Government to paying in England £3,626 for the intake the whole matter into its own spection of Poor Law schools, and we are still paying £48,964 for district auditors. All these sums ought not to be defrayed from the Imperial taxation at all. In England you have got a medical officer who gets £1,200 a year, with two assistants at £1,000 a year each, and nine Inspectors receiving from £500 to £800 a year. In Ireland there is a medical officer receiving £1,200 a year, and four Inspectors receiving from £500 to £700 a year. In Scotland you have only got one medical officer, for whom you pay £200 a year, and there are no assistants and no Inspectors. The result is, that there is no proper inspection, and the Public Health Act is not properly carried out and enforced in Scotland. In consequence of the parsimony of Parliament in this respect as regards Scotland there are hundreds of preventible deaths occurring in Scotland, and what ought to be done in Scotland is what has been done in the

hands.

Question put.

The House divided:- Ayes 205; Noes 147.-(Div. List, No. 57.)

Main Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

PAYMENT OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS. (5.43.) DR. CLARK (Caithness): I rise to call attention to the payment of officials in England, Scotland, and Ireland. Last year I called attention to the Estimates for Scotland. This year I shall confine myself to pointing out, in the Estimate dealing with Local Government and one or two other Estimates, where Scotland does not get a fair share of the Imperial grant. I may say, so far as Scotland is concerned, even in the Scotch Office here in London, the officials are paid according to the scale and rate existing in

Mr. Roby

to

case of England and Ireland-namely, | English prisons than in the Scotch provide a sufficient number of prisons; but when I looked at the medical officers and Inspectors. Returns, I found that the very opposite There are cases in which costs defrayed was the case. Take a large one in by local rates in Scotland are here Scotland-Barlini-there is an average defrayed partly by local rates and attendance daily there of 740, while in partly by a subsidy from Parliament. Stafford there is an average of 588, The cost of registration in Scotland is and in Wakefield 591. Now, in entirely defrayed by the local rates, and Wakefield the chaplains and surgeons it ought to be so defrayed in England. get £350 to £400; at Barlini, where We bear the entire expense in Scot- there is a larger attendance, they get land. I think that in England and from £200 to £300. Therefore, they Ireland the entire expense should be are underpaid in Barlini. I shall have defrayed by the local rates. We ought again to call attention to these special not to vote from the Imperial taxes a Votes, and to move their reduction to single penny towards it. I shall at the the Scotch level. I think that in this, proper time move that this Vote be as in many other things, we are rather disallowed on the ground that it is not badly treated by the Imperial Parliarequired. The subsidies in respect of ment. I call the attention of the right England and Ireland ought to be dis- hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Gorst) to it, in continued. But there is a much more order that he may be able to rectify important question, and that is the sub- our grievance, and see that a sum of ject of technical education. In England money is voted to Scotland equal to there is a Royal College of Science, and that voted to England and Ireland. in Ireland there is a Royal College of Science, and these are subsidised, but not a single penny is given to Scotland for that purpose. Therefore, our Scotch lads who have to compete for situations in the open market are unfairly handicapped by the State paying this money for technical education in England and Ireland. I shall at the proper time move the reduction of the amount given to England and Ireland for that porpose. There is another matter to which I wish to refer. £15,000 was voted for England and Scotland three or four years ago; but the whole of that amount has been spent on England only, and any for Scotland curtly refused. As I pointed out on the last occasion, there is also a great disparity between the pay of the prison officials of the three countries. chaplains particularly are very badly used. The salaries of the second-class officials in England begin at £400, and go up to £500. The salaries of the chaplains of that class in England begin at £350 and go up to £450; in Ireland they begin at £325 and go up to £400; whilst in Scotland the chaplains and surgeons begin at £200 and go up to £300. When I raised the question last year I was told by the then Secretary to the Treasury that the reason was that there were more prisoners in the

The

(6.2.) THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir J. GORST, Chatham): I do not know whether hon. Members expect to have a detailed answer to the observations they have made. They have criticised the Estimates with the view of showing what is spent on England and what is spent on Scotland; but the question is, I think, whether, in the different parts of the Kingdom, a sufficient amount is spent to make the Service efficient; and if Scotland can do it efficiently for a less sum than England, so much more is it to the credit of Scotland. I do not think that the pay of the chaplains in Scotland alone should be considered, but whether the Services as a whole are adequately conducted and whether the necessities of Government are met. The hon. Member has selected several Scotch services on which the expenditure is less than on the same services in England and Ireland. It would be easy enough to pick out instances in Scotland where the expenditure is very much greater in proportion. For example, the administration of the Education Act in England costs £58,000, while in Scotland it costs £10,000. But Scotland is a country where the population is more diffused than in England, and therefore education is proportionately more expensive. It.

would be foolish, however, to complain [ nationality-and charges corresponding of such expenditure as an injustice to that ought in England to be charged to England. Again, the inspection of to the Local Government Account. factories, workshops, and mines in Then, I notice some other charges, and England costs £144,000, while in Scot- amongst them engineering establishland it costs £26,750, which is in the ments of the Local Government Board proportion of one to eleven, instead Medical Department, Local Governof, according to the population, two to ment Board Inspection of Alkali Works, fifteen. The question to be considered &c. All these are properly chargeable in each case is, whether the service is against the English Local Government adequately performed, and not what is Account, and are not properly chargethe relative cost. The total cost of the able on the Imperial Estimates. There administration of prisons in Scotland is another point namely, technical is higher than it is in England, the pro- schools. There are in Scotland no portion being two to seven, or twice as technical schools corresponding to those much as it should be if it were in pro- you have in England, and, consequently, portion to the population of the two there are no corresponding grants to countries. With all respect to the hon. the Scotch people. This endless conMember, I think that to compare the fusion and endless discussion has arisen salaries in Scotland with those in from the Chancellor of the Exchequer England or in Ireland is not a very having divided an Imperial Account useful course to pursue, and that neither into what are now National Accounts. the House nor the Committee of Supply That is one of the defects that will conwill derive any advantage from carrying front the Government at every stage, on the discussion. and their difficulties will not be lessened by the result which these separate accounts show-namely, that England is dipping more deeply into the Imperial pocket than Scotland.

(6.8.) MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox): I wish to point out that the Post Office officials, as well as other officials in Scotland, are not paid so well as those who discharge similar duties in England. We wish to see equal salaries paid to them in both countries. In Scotland we are taxed equally with the people of England, and no allowance is made for the fact that Scotland is a poorer country than England-we are taxed up to our full population. Therefore, there is no reason why our officials should be paid less than those in England. The result was this: when you take out of the Imperial Estimates the Scotch grants and take off the English grants you have left on the Imperial Estimates a great many grants to England for which there is no corresponding grant to Scotland at all. There is on the Imperial Estimates for England £162,049, whilst opposite to that we have only £9,117 for Scotland. On the Imperial Estimates there are large sums for England for which Scotland gets no allowance whatever. For example, an item such as this: Inspection of Poor Law schools, several thousand pounds. In Scotland Poor Law schools are paid out of Scotland's share of the Probate Duty-the money allocated to Scotland as a separate

Sir J. Gorst

MR. WALLACE (Edinburgh, E.): I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has improved the feeling between the different sections of the Empire by the speech which he made a few minutes ago. I do not like to use the expression, but I really think he was adding insult to injury. During the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman walked down the length of the floor to the Bar. I knew his object; he was in quest of facts, but found no person able to give him the information he desired. That being so, on taking up the Paper, he commenced to live, in a sense, on his wits. But we know in Scotland that people are proverbially insensible in a matter of this kind to the effects of the highest line of jocularity. want something that is practical, and the right hon. Gentleman, to my mind, did not afford us very much satisfaction of that description. He affected to say that the reason why the number of public servants in Scotland was SO low, as compared with England, was that the work could be done there more

We