I economically. But, Sir, there is a sometimes listened to in a diminished certain justice to be observed. degree, and I think it was clinching the admit that the public servants in Scot- disadvantage he brought against us land are more economical to the Exwhen he used the imperfect facts that chequer. What we complain of is that that is an oppression and an in- came to his knowledge in attempting justice, and we say that the persons to corroborate his sophistical and falwho do the work in Scotland do it on lacious-and I would use another starvation lines. Why should that be word if I had it at my command--arwhy should starvation lines be the guments in connection with a portion Scotch standard, and liberal lines the of the Empire that deserves very much English standard ? These are the more respect, not only in general but in grievances we complain of. The right financial aspects, than it is getting at hon. Gentleman thinks he satisfied us the present time. The Scotch public by placing the grievances in a way that understand perfectly well how the was more favourable, but we are not matter stands, and, taking it all over, so insensible to the way of putting it was well put by my hon. Friend and things as the right hon. Gentleman is new ally the Member for St. Rollox (Mr. pleased to consider. We know the Caldwell). They perfectly well underreason why there is this disparity of stand that the financial disparity is, remuneration in one country as com- on the whole, a true index of the polipared with the other is simply this: tical disparity and of the absence that England is a supremely powerful of the respect properly due to nationality in comparison with our- the Northern part of the Island. The selves, and that they have unjustly right hon. Gentleman the Financial used the power they possess. It is Secretary gave up the case as regards simply the weakness of our Scotch the frightful cost of administration in representation that prevents us from Ireland; but as regards the weaker having a fair recognition in the dis- part of the Empire (weaker, I mean, in tribution of public servants, and the point of representation), with regard to remuneration necessary for the main- the Scotch portion of the Empire, it is tenance of those servants. The right simply sat upon and neglected, because hon. Gentleman will not put off the it has not the amount of representaScotch people with this explanation: tive power that the other portions of that it is an honour to us the Empire enjoy. It does not occur that we can do the public to me to press the matter any further. work that is wanted in a more cheap, I desire, with my colleagues, simply to and I presume in a proportionately more emphasise the feeling that we are not perfunctory form. We know that is fairly treated; that we are treated Sir, sufferance is the badge of with a contempt that ought not to be all our race. I say that with a non- extended by the more powerful to the Hebrew application. We do not want less powerful part of the Empire; and to maintain that badge, and the pro- I trust that the small success that we posal of my hon. Friend the Member have achieved in connection with cerfor Caithness is that, as far as possible, tain parts of our administration in rethat badge of not only of sufferance, but gard to their financial value will, by the of dishonour and disgrace, should be persevering pressure of the Representadone away with. The right hon. Gen- tives of Scotland, extend so that byetleman the Secretary to the Treasury, and-bye the right hon. Gentleman will in casting his eagle eye over the Papers, not have it in his power to attempt to fell upon one or two facts. What is the evade an honest and proper and statesexplanation of the fortuitous advantages manlike explanation of the clear facts he descried in looking over that Paper which he contradicted by resiling from for the first time? It is simply this: that practical truths and falling back, I we have not been totally unsuccessful will not say on flippancies, but on in pursuing our claims even against the cleverness and on an adroit manipulaEnglish public. Sir, the voice of re- tion of arguments which he knows how monstrance and the claims of justice, to use, but which will not deceive those although not perfectly responded to, are to whom they are addressed. not true. own MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): I twice richer than Ireland; therefore, think we have a right to complain that the salaries in Ireland, if the contenwhen a notice of this kind comes for- tion of the right hon. Gentleman is to ward for discussion no Representa- have force, should be lower than they tive of the Treasury Bench acquainted are in Scotland. But in point of fact with the facts is here to deal they are on a much higher scale, and with it. That is all the more to that is a complete answer to the argube regretted, because the right ment of the right hon. Gentleman. If hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Scotland is to get the benefit of these Treasury, although he possesses great economies one might appreciate them, natural acuteness, exhibited to this but the monies go into the Imperial House this afternoon a total and com- Exchequer. I do not desire to say plete ignorance of the facts of the anything in favour of exorbitant situation. It was only a gentleman salaries, and for this reason that I completely ignorant of the state of look forward to the time when Scotthe facts in Scotland as well as in land will manage her own affairs and England, who would, for one moment, get the advantage of her have compared the office of Secre- economies. Instead of paying per tary for Scotland with the Home Office. head of the population in Customs and Sir, the Office of the Secretary for Excise an equal amount to that paid in Scotland is not only the Home Office, England, Scotland paid last year more but a Local Government Office, and an than a million in excess of her proper Education Office and a Home Office all share. Therefore, Sir, Scotland's conrolled into one. If the right hon. Gen- tribution to the Imperial Exchequer is tleman had known that elementary far in excess of the fair proportion fact he would not have made the com- which she ought to pay, having regard parison in which he indulged. Nor do to her population and her wealth; and I think the right hon. Gentleman was yet, on the other hand, we have all the fortunate in his defence of the low Departments of State in Scotland salaries of the present officials in Scot-treated in a mean and scurvy and unland. The right hon. Gentleman said, handsome fashion, the salaries being "Do not look to the money, but look to insufficient to attract a proper class of the efficiency." If he is aware of the men. fact that you could go into the market and obtain as efficient a doctor for £200 as the gentleman to whom you are now paying £400 there would be some force in his observations; but the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that is not the case, and that the result of the extremely low salaries paid in Scotland is this: that you get a less efficient class of public servants, and must do so. You cannot get any properly educated or qualified medical man to serve in a prison in Scotland at £200 a year. No Scotch doctor, unless at the very bottom of his class, would take such a position at such remuneration. Sir, what we complain of is the inevitable inefficiency that results from the employment of inferior workmen. You have only to look to Irish salaries. I am quite prepared to admit that in Scotland you will get men of equal efficiency at somewhat smaller salaries to do the same work that is performed in England. England is a richer country than Scotland, but Scotland is GRANTS TO FISHERY HARBOURS. (6.30.) MR. LLOYD GEORGE Carnarvon, &c.) I have a notice of Motion on the Paper relating to the distribution of grants in aid of fishery harbours in the United Kingdom. I do not wish to detain the House at length, but I should like to point out the result of these grants so far as Wales is concerned. I find in Class II. a considerable grant in aid of the development of fisheries in Scotland, and another grant not so large in aid of the fisheries in Ireland, but I see no grant in aid of fishery piers and harbours in England and Wales. Last year the Government spent £15,000 on the building of piers and harbours in the North of Scotland, and £11,000 on a pier at Thurso for the development of fisheries there. DR. CLARK (Caithness): I beg to say that was money lent for which the Thurso people pay interest; it was not a grant at all. (29 MARCH, 1892) Fishery Harbours. 210 I press the right hon. Gentleman to secure (6.35.) MR. T. E. ELLIS (Meri- MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: It was money lent by the Government, not by private individuals, and that is the point of my case. We should be glad of a grant for Wales on the same principle, not getting it absolutely without return; we are prepared to accept it on the same terms as it was made to Caithness. There are Fishery Boards exercising authority in Cardigan Bay and elsewhere on the Welsh coast; but the great complaint is that although these Boards are able to prevent illegal fishing and dredging within a certain distance of the shore they are unable to do anything for the permanent improvement of the fishing industry. There is not a single harbour in Cardigan Bay for the protection of fishing boats, and the same may be said of other parts of both the North and South coasts of Wales. I am not tion the fishing industry cannot deWithout harbour accommodacompetent to speak of England, but velop, and I hope we may have some last year I did hear an English Mem- promise of substantial assistance beber call attention to a similar deficiency yond the statement of the fact that the in regard to some parts of the English Loans Commissioners can make adcoast; but into that part of the ques-vances for the purpose. tion I am not competent to enter. towns I mention cannot act together. The small Resolutions have been passed by fishing I know the interest the right hon. communities in favour of petitioning Gentleman takes in the development the Government to consider this ques- of the fishing industry, and I hope he tion, and last year I called the atten- will promise that an expert's opinion tion of the right hon. Gentleman the shall be provided as to how and where President of the Board of Trade to the it is best to provide the most needed subject. I do not recollect the words protection for the fishing vessels on the of his answer, but so far as my memory Welsh coast. helps me, I think he did promise to look into the matter, earnestly press and I it would again upon his attention. We do not desire that the harbours should made absolutely and entirely out of be Imperial funds but that a certain amount should be granted in aid of local subscriptions, or that the Treasury should grant loans on such terms as may enable Local Authorities to undertake the work. Along the coast with which I am most acquainted there are no harbours, so that boats coming from the Isle of Man have, at the least sign of bad weather to return though they may be within a couple of miles of the Welsh coast. The Welsh fishing industry is thus severely handicapped, while, at the same time, large sums are devoted to the development of the fishing in Scotland and Ireland. May *(6.38.) THE PRESIDENT OF THE Class 2 Vote 28 Grant in Aid for Scotch do not wish to dwell in February and March. All I ask is that the same time should be extended to the Museum in Bloomsbury. No doubt I shall have the same reply in regard to expense, but that ought, I think, to be infinitesimal for the extra half-hour. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will use his influence with the Trustees to get this extension for the public. I have been at the Museum in February and seen the people turned out into the streets by the police at four o'clock while an hour and a half of daylight remained, and I could not but think it hard that the people should not be permitted to enjoy their own Museum for a short time longer. Holyhead, and for fishing vessels ex- | Kensington, the additional time was cellent shelter is afforded by Bardsey granted and there was no addiIsland. I do not say that some tional expense for the extra time additional harbour accommodation may not be necessary, but it is absolutely impossible for me in the absence of any definite request to make any definite promise. If there is any general opinion in Wales that something should be done towards assisting the construction of a harbour at any particular place, surely it is for those concerned to formulate that opinion and lay it before the proper authority, and if such should come before me it will certainly be carefully considered; but I am bound by the terms of the Treasury Minute of May 4th, 1887, which practically precludes grants, and confines my duty to the consideration of applications for approval to loans upon proper security. If hon. Members desire to obtain grants they should endeavour to induce the Secretary to the Treasury to adopt the view that Wales should be put upon the same footing with Scotland and Ireland, and that it would be beneficial to the fishing industry of Wales that grants should be made. But it is not in my power, all I can do is to consider any definite proposal for a loan coming before me. The hon. Member has referred to the Sea Fisheries Committees, and surely they might take expert opinions and if they think necessary formulate some scheme. BRITISH MUSEUM CLOSING TIME. (6.41.) COLONEL BRIDGEMAN (Bolton): I take the opportunity to direct attention to the hours at which the public are excluded from the British Museum. Yesterday I addressed a question to the Secretary to the Treasury whether the hours for closing the British Museum could not be made the same as those for the Natural History Museum, and the reply was that it could not be done without additional expense, and that this additional expense prevented the change being made. Four or five years ago I asked a similar question, and obtained a similar reply in regard to the Natural History Museum at South Kensington; but after one ΟΙ two letters had passed between the Treasury and the authorities at South Sir M. Hicks Beach (6.45.) THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): My right hon. Friend cannot speak again, but he desires me to say that the Trustees of the British Museum have been consulted, and they see considerable difficulty in making the extension which would involve considerable extra expense. As a matter of fact the Museum is open longer than the other institution with which the hon. Member has compared it unfavourably. The matter, however, shall receive attention, and the Trustees shall again be referred to. POST LETTER-CARDS. (Peter (6.45.) MR. MORTON borough.) There are one or two questions I desire to raise in reference to Post Office administration, and one of these has reference to Ocean Penny Postage, but I do not know that it is of any use arguing it in the absence of the Postmaster General. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consent to adjourn the Debate until we can have the advantage of the presence of the Postmaster General? Of course, if he does not agree to that I must proceed now. The first matter I have to mention has reference to what are called post lettercards. I have no desire to prevent getting into Committee, or to stand in the way of Business, but I know from experience that we cannot rely upon finding an opportunity later in the Session when the Post Office Vote is taken somewhere about the middle of to a large section of the Irish people. It closely concerns all the tenant farmers of Ireland who have not succeeded in acquiring the ownership of their holdings under the Ashbourne Act or the Land Purchase Act of last year. It is because of the importance of the Motion July. On a former occasion I objected to the price charged to the public for these letter-cards, namely ten for a shilling. I think they might be sold for a penny; and I find that in foreign countries they are sold at a much cheaper rate. Here is a sample of the cards sold in Austria at the rate of 20-because it is I believe, bound up with for a shilling. Why cannot we sell the the future prosperity of Ireland-that I cards in this country at as cheap a rate? desire to elicit from Members repreI am bound to say the policy of the Gov-senting different parts of Ireland ernment in this country is to regard the opinions in regard to the compulsory Post Office business as a means for purchase of land. I do not intend, and obtaining revenue rather than as an I hope I shall avoid, the introduction of institution for the service of the public. Party differences. I know this is a more and more (6.49) MR. A. J. BALFOUR rose in question which is his place, and claimed to move, agitating the public mind; it is thrustthe Main Question be now put." ing itself to the front; and I trust it will receive favourable consideration in the House, having in view the fact that again and again Parliament has affirmed the principle of land purchase. So far back as 1870 we had what are called the "Bright Clauses.' Those clauses in the Act of 1870 failed owing to the fact that the whole of the purchase 66 That MR. SPEAKER: I must leave the responsibility with the hon. Member. I understood him to say he had no desire to prevent a decision being taken on the Motion? MR. MORTON: I desire to finish my remarks. 46 Question put, That the Main Ques-money was not advanced. Only threetion be now put." quarters of the purchase money, I believe, was allowed to be borrowed from the State; and the tenant farmers of Ireland at that time, and unfortu nately since, have been unable to find the 25 per cent. of the whole purchase money. The "Bright Clauses" of the Act of 1870 failed from this cause, and the Ashbourne Act is more liberal in its character. That Act allows to the tenant purchaser the advance of the whole of the purchase money by the State, with no security or practically no securityto the State for the advance. No doubt 20 per cent. is retained by the State for five years; but, after the expiration of that period, the only security the taxpayers of England will have for their ten millions of money will be the security of the land itself. I believe that under any scheme of land purchase, no matter how you may hedge it round by artificial safeguards securities, and guarantees, the only real security is the land itself. The British taxpayer has already advanced, or has consented to advance, 43 millions of money for the purchase of Irish land. Ten millions of that have been expended under the Ashbourne Act, and we are told that, the 33 millions sanctioned by the |