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but as to their relationship to the people of India, the constituency which the Congress Party represent cannot be described as otherwise than a minute and almost microscopic minority of the total population of India. At the present time the population of British India is 221,000,000; and of that number it has been calculated that not more than from 3 to 4 per cent. can read or write any one of their native tongues; considerably less than 1 per cent-about one-fourth or one-third-can read or write English. In the Province of Bengal alone, where the population exceeds 72,000,000, it has been calculated that the maximum constituency created by Mr. Bradlaugh's Bill would have only numbered a total of 870,000. It appears to me that you can as little judge of the feelings and aspirations of the people of India from the plans and proposals of the Congress Party as you can judge of the physical configuration of a country which is wrapped up in the mists of early morning, but a few of whose topmost peaks have been touched by the rising sun. To propose an elaborate system of representation for a people in this stage of development. would appear to me to be, in the highest degree, premature and unwise. To describe such a system as representation of the people of India would be little better than a farce. The Government assume the responsibility of stating that, in their opinion, the time has not come when representative institutions, as we understand the term, can be extended to India. The idea of representation is alien to the Indian mind. We have only arrived at it by slow degrees ourselves, through centuries of conflict and storm. Nay, it may be said that it is only within the last 25 years that we have in this country entered into anything like its full fruition. No doubt we are apt to regard popular representation as the highest expression of political equality and political freedom; but it does not necessarily so present itself to those who have no instinctive sense of what political equality is. How can you predicate political equality of a community that is sundered into irreconcilable camps("No!")-into irreconcilable camps by differences of caste, of religion, of

ideas of political progress have been formed in the breathless atmosphere of life in the West, and who are perhaps unable to accommodate their pace to the slower movement of life in the East. The hon. Member (Mr. Schwann), for instance, is anxious to have the elective principle more clearly defined and more systematically enforced, and he has placed an Amendment on the Paper, in which he asks the House to signify its opinion that no reform of the Indian Councils which does not embody the elective principle, will be satisfactory to the Indian people, or will be compatible with the good government of India. I venture to say, Sir, that this Amendment is vitiated by a two-fold fallacy, for while, in the first place, the hon. Member affects to speak on behalf of the Indian people, he at the same time entirely ignores the primary conditions of Indian life. When the hon. Member assumes in this House to be the mouthpiece of the people of India, I must emphatically decline to accept his credentials in that capacity. No system of representation that has ever been devised, no system of representation that the ingenuity of the hon. Member can suggest, no system of representation that would stand the test of 24 hours' operation, would, in the most infinitesimal degree, represent the people of India. Who are the people of India? The people of India are the voiceless millions who can neither read nor write their own tongues, who have no knowledge whatever of English, who are not perhaps universally aware of the fact that the English are in their country as rulers. The people of India are the ryots and the peasants, whose life is not one of political aspiration, but of mute penury and toil. The plans and policy of the Congress Party in India would leave this vast amorphous residuum absolutely untouched. I do not desire to speak in any other than terms of respect of the Congress Party of India. That Party contains a number of intelligent, liberal-minded, and public-spirited men, who undoubtedly represent that portion of the Indian people which has profited by the educational advantages placed at their doors, and which is more or less imbued with European ideas;

VOL. III. [NEW (FOURTH) SERIES.]

D

custom, which hold men fast-bound | Councils, and may have an opportunity during their life-time, and the rigour of of explaining their views with a fuller which is not abated even beyond the sense of responsibility than they at grave? I notice that the hon. Member present enjoy. If the Government are has altered the terms of the Amend-able at present to go no further it ment as it was originally placed upon arises from no want of sympathy with the Paper. At first he spoke of the the inhabitants of India, but from a elective principle as defined at the sense of the colossal responsibility that meetings of the Indian National rests upon them, and of the dangers Congress. But those words are now that would accrue from any rash or omitted. I think that that is a prudent imprudent step. This Bill is not, omission. For the truth is that the perhaps, a great, or heroic measure; Indian Congress is not of one mind, but, at the same time, it does and does not speak with one voice on mark a decisive step, and a step in this matter. In 1890 we had a Bill advance. As such it has been welcontaining an elaborate system of comed by every living Viceroy of India. electoral colleges and proportional re- It was foreshadowed by Lord Dufferin ; presentation, and overswollen Councils, it is earnestly asked for by Lord presented to this House; but in the Lansdowne; and it has received the following year this Bill was inconti- emphatic approval of Lord Northbrook, nently withdrawn, and has never been no less than the approbation of Lord heard of since. And in that year Mr. Ripon. I hope that these facts, and the Bradlaugh of whose Parliamentary explanation which I have given, may ability no one could have any doubt- commend this Bill to the sympathy of introduced another Bill entirely dif- the House, that it may be regarded as ferent, in which he showed such ex- a useful measure, and may be exempt treme diffidence in himself and in the from the ordinary Parliamentary obIndian National Congress, and such stacles and delays. There are two confidence in the Indian Government, main objects which this House is that, although it contained expressed entitled to require in any new legisprovisions for a system of election, the lation for India. Firstly, that it should means by which that system was to be add to, and in no sense impair, the efficarried out were left entirely to the ciency of Government; and, secondly, discretion of the latter. These ambi- that it should also promote the interests guous, fluctuating, and hesitating pro- of the governed. It is because I posals illustrate the premature and believe this measure will further both experimental character of every reform those ends, that I commend it to the hitherto advocated. But while these sympathetic attention of the House, and considerations render it, I believe, will conclude by moving that the Bill impossible so to re-model the Legis- be now read a second time. lative Councils of India as to give them the character of Representative Chambers, I should be the last

to

deny the importance of the opinions and the criticism of gentlemen representing the advanced phases of Indian society. At present the sole vent that is available for that body of opinion is in the native Press, and in organised meetings such as the Indian National Congress. Everybody on both sides of the House agrees that this knowledge and activity might be better utilised than it is at present; and the Government believe that the sub-section of Clause 1 will provide the means by which representatives of the most important sections of native society may be appointed to the

Mr. Curzon

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time." (Mr. Curzon.)

(5.40.) MR. SCHWANN (Manchester, N.): I beg to move as an Amendment :

"That, in the opinion of this House, no reform of the Indian Councils which does not embody the elective principle will prove satisfactory to the Indian people, or compatible with the good government of India."

I beg to assure the House that I move this Amendment in no Party spirit. I think that in the presence of 285,000,000 of our fellow-subjects in the East it would be wrong of anyone to touch on a subject so nearly allied with their interests in anything but the most

judicial and impartial spirit. At the same time I feel it incumbent upon me to move this Resolution, because I believe the Bill itself will not answer in any way the expectations, the desires, and the aspirations of the Indian people. We have heard the history of this Bill for the last three or four years. It seems to have been wilfully strangled by its present parents. I repeat that I hope it will not be accepted by this House, as it certainly will not be accepted by the Indian people as anything like even an instalment of what they desire, of what they require, and of what is necessary for their happiness. The fact is that the Bill contains, it seems to me, but a very slight trace of the elective principle. The hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill says that Clause 4, which is the only one which can be credited in any way with an admission of the principle, is one which will limit the number of representative Members to a number of gentlemen nominated as heretofore by the Viceroy. Now, Sir, I think the Indian people have a right to receive from this House a more determined expression of their opinion, and that representation which is merely nomination by the highest officials of India is not sufficient, and is inadequate at the present moment. The hon. Gentleman has referred to the year 1861 and to the proposals which were made by the Government of India at that day and which exist at present. Well, but 30 years have elapsed since that date, and what was quite adequate for India at that time is entirely inadequate for the India of to-day. The fact is, India, as the hon. Gentleman said, has slumbered long. We all remember the words of the late Mr. John Bright uttered in the Manchester Town Hall many years ago, when he said that India in face of the English people was dumb. But the Indian people have since that time found voice, and may be considered, to a large extent, a nation. I am quite willing to admit, as the hon. Gentleman has said, that India consists of a number of races, with different creeds, different customs, and differing even in colour. At the same time, we

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must not forget that the English nation consists of more than one race, and that it is almost impossible to find any nation with absolute purity of race and of origin. The Indian people, I

maintain, have to a very large extent now attained to а clear idea of nationality, and I think this has taken place through the instrumentality of the English language, of commerce, of education, of a free Press, and of the right of free meeting. The hon, Gentleman has spoken of India as if it was entirely sunk in ignorance at the present day. I should like the House to remember that there are five Universities at the present moment in India. At the present moment at Oxford there are at least 20 Indian students; at Cambridge there are 20 Indian students. At the Unversities of Edinburgh and London there are a large number of Indian gentlemen who are preparing to return to India, after receiving a thorough English education; and when they go back again they will find a large number of men who have already passed through the English Colleges, and who are perfectly able to understand the value of political privileges. and views through our Western ideas. At one time the Punjaubee could not understand the Madrassee, nor the Bengalee speak with the Mahrattee. Now a large number of men of these various races of the Indian people are able to confer with one another, to exchange their ideas, and to act together for political purposes. very condition of things which I have pointed out as existing to-day was foreseen by some of our statesmen of former times. Lord Macaulay, in a memorable speech, says—

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'It may be that the public mind of India may expand under our system until it has outgrown that system; that by good government we may educate our subjects into a cabecome instructed in European knowledge, pacity for better government; that, having they may,in some future age,demand European institutions. Whether such a day will ever come I know not; but never will I attempt to avert or to retard it. Whenever it comes it will be the proudest day in English history. To have found a great people sunk in the lowest depths of slavery and superstition, to have so ruled them as to have made them desirous and capable of all the privileges of citizens, would, indeed, be a title to glory all

our own."

there must be a large and capable
body of men who are perfectly fit to
undertake the performance of political
duties for their country. I had the
advantage of being present at the meet-
ing of the Indian Congress of 1890,
and I have never
seen any debate
carried on in a more orderly, more
loyal, or a more dignified and amicable
manner. Everything was conducted
had been a meeting of the great Federa-
exactly with as much regularity as if it
tions of Conservative or Liberal Asso-
ciations in this country. The only thing
that was changed was the beautiful and

Well, I have said that India has a national voice, and that voice, to a large extent, is the Indian National Congress. The hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill has said that India consists of a great number of races who are hostile to one another; but is it not strange that in the Indian National Congress you will find Representatives of all the races of India, acting together for political ends with the greatest harmony, harmony, with the greatest loyalty to the Crown, and with great advantage, I submit, to the questions which interest the Indian people. You will find amongst the Members of the National Congress Hindoos, Mussulmans, Parsees, Chris-gorgeous costumes of the delegates, there tians, Jains, Sikhs, &c., &c., and other

them and the more prosaic costumes of being a very marked contrast between races. Some of them travel thousands of miles, journeying very often House to take note that the Indian Western Europe. I should like the three or four days and nights, in order Congress when sitting was not confined to be present at this National Congress. to the delegates sent from various parts They often risk even the exclusion of that vast country. Some six or seven from caste, because, in some cases, the thousand spectators were present, all crossing of the sea in a ship is sufficient to exclude from caste, in order to ceedings, and showing the same political taking the greatest interest in the probe present. Then, the growth of the Congress is phenomenal. In the year 1885 energy and enthusiasm as would be the the Congress met in Bombay, and the should also like to point out that the case on a similar occasion in England. I number of delegates present was 72; in delegates were all elected in open, 1886, it met in Calcutta, and the num-free, public meeting; and that, thereber of delegates was 400; in 1887, it met fore, while we are looking around to in Madras, when the number of delegates present had swollen to 607; in 1888, it duce a little of the elective principle see if by any possibility we can intromet in Allahabad, and the number into India, the elective principle has present then was 1,500; in 1889, it been already carried on in India to a met in Bombay, and the number pre- very large extent, in the most orderly sent was 1,590; and, in the year and regular manner, by a large section 1890, it met in Calcutta, and then the of the Indian people. Do not let us number of delegates present was 677 (the proportion of delegates to the of election is a new one in India. suppose, therefore, that the principle number of the population having been should also like to insist upon the reduced, because it was found very loyal spirit shown by the people of difficult to offer hospitality to the num-India. If the House will allow me I ber of delegates willing to come from shall read the opening remarks of the the extreme portions of India in order to Chairman at the meeting of 1891 in take part in the Congress) but besides the December last. He saiddelegates there were several thousands of spectators present as audience on each occasion. The hon. Gentleman has said that there is a great want in India of men able and willing to take a thorough interest in Indian politics. It seems to me that if you have got such a large number of men as 1,590 delegates to travel across the country under such disabilities and inconveniences as exist in India, it is a proof that

Mr. Schwann

I

"The keynote of the movement is loyalty to the British Crown and attachment to the British people, to whom India owes its rebirth. The promoters of the movement have a

thorough appreciation of the excellent intentions of the Indian Government, and it is their fixed desire and firm resolve to secure by loyal and constitutional means the reforms which are essential to the fruition of those intentions. As loyal subjects of Great Britain and India. We know, whoever may misjudge we desire the everlasting union of England us, that we can render no greater service to

either country than by openly declaring what | hospitals, dispensaries, and sanitary

we consider to be unsuitable or defective in

the existing administration."
Now, the Indian National Congress, a
purely elected body, has gone through
the usual forms of criticism. At first
it was the subject of ridicule; then
threats were used and the Anglo-Indian
Press suggested that it should be boy-
cotted and suppressed; and, lastly, it
was received and treated with respect,
if not cordiality. Lord Lansdowne,
with respect to the meeting of 1890,
removed a certain interdict which
had prevented the Civil servants of the
English Crown attending the meeting,
even as visitors, up to that date.
Lord Lansdowne annulled that
interdict, and, speaking in the most
handsome and courteous manner of
the Congress, said it was perfectly
admissible, that it was the expression
of the voice of the people, that it was
constitutional, and that there was no
reason why Civil servants should
not attend it as visitors and spectators
-though not, of course, as members
taking an active part in the proceed-
ing. The English Press has also
changed its tone very much as regards
the Indian Congress. The English
Times, in its notice of the last Indian
Congress, treated it with far
more
courtesy than it had ever done before;
and so it is also with other English
papers. I do not wish to weary the
House with extracts. The Anglo-
Indian Press, however, does not treat
the Indian Congress in the same
friendly spirit. But you might almost
as well expect the Orange Press in
Ireland to be fair and impartial to the
hon. Member for North-East Cork
(Mr. W. O'Brien) as to expect the
Anglo-Indian Press to deal fairly with
the Indian National Congress.
House may be surprised to hear that
there are 755 Municipalities in India,
and about 892 Local Boards-in all
1,647 institutions of a municipal
character. A certain proportion of the
members of these Bodies are nominated,
but a large number-the majority-of
them are elected by the people in open
meeting. These Bodies have control of
Rx7,000,000, and they have the charge
of all municipal business, including
streets, roads, water supply in all cities
and most towns, of local roads, schools,

The

improvements, and of harbour works, port approaches, and pilotage. Officials testify to the great interest shown in the election. One report states: "At the contested elections in Murabganj 96 per cent. and in Jalesar 89 per cent. of the registered electors appeared at the polls and voted." At Mooltan, in the Punjab, 70 per cent. of the registered voters polled. So keen was the contest that the successful candidate won by one vote only. The average attendance of Members of Municipalities of the united Provinces was 63 per cent, of the whole number, and in one town exceeded 90 per cent. I now turn to the main question which is before the Housethat of the application of the elective principle to the Vice-regal and the Provincial Councils. What did Lord Dufferin say in his Jubilee speech with regard to it? He said

"Wide and broad indeed are the new fields.

in which the Government of India is called upon to labour but no longer, as of aforetime, need it labour alone. Within the period we are reviewing, education has done its work, and we are surrounded on all sides by native gentlemen of great attainments and intelligence, from whose hearty, loyal, and honest co-operation, we may hope to derive the greatest benefit. In fact, to an Administration, so peculiarly situated as ours, their advice, assistance, and solidarity are essential Nor do I regard with any other feelings than those of approval and goodwill their natural ambition to be more extensively associated with their English rulers in the ad

to the successful exercise of its functions.

ministration of their own domestic affairs."

This is a complete answer to the plea of the Under Secretary that it was impossible to find in India native gentlemen worthy and capable of taking places in the higher Councils of India. This was confirmed by Lord Dufferin in another speech which he made in 1887, when he said—

"Glad and happy should I be if during my circumstances permitted me to extend and to sojourn among them (the people of India) place upon a wider and more logical footing the political status which was so wisely given, a generation ago, by that great statesman, their influence, their acquirements, and the Lord Halifax, to such Indian gentlemen as by confidence they inspired in their fellowcountrymen were marked out adjuncts to our Legislative Councils." Lord Northbrook has also expressed himself in favour of a "properly guarded application of some mode of election."

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