one

"An hon. Member has referred to the Native Congresses. I may just say that I have long thought that elective Members might be substituted for the appointed Members on the various Legislative Councils. I shall be prepared to bring forward a moderate and practical scheme to give effect to that principle on the proper occasion."

I am delighted to have that testimony from the hon. Baronet-his opinion is of real value. I must apologise to the House for perhaps wearying it with so many extracts, but I think the House is more likely to value the opinions of such eminent authorities rather than the impressions of a humble Member of the House like myself, but I am now coming to a conclusion. First, however, let us see what the author of Greater Britain (Sir Charles Dilke) has to say upon the question. He writes—

I understand it is the general feeling of the Indian National Congress that it would be advisable to leave to the Viceroy to propose what method of considers best. representation he Lord Lansdowne has, I believe, not expressed himself as opposed to the elective principle; but it is very difficult indeed to ascertain what really passed between the Viceroy and the Home Government with reference to the question. To a certain extent the knowledge is abroad that Lord Lansdowne sent round proposals to the Lieutenant Governors which received general acquiescence except in case, as to the introduction of the elective principle as far as regards Provincial Councils. Lord Dufferin actually forwarded a scheme to the Home Indian Office containing this actual proposal, but the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for India has had the wisdom to omit this striking proposal when he referred to Lord Dufferin's proposition and programme. It is scarcely necessary for me to refer to Lord Ripon's views upon the question, because we all know that his Lordship has broad opinions with regard to it; but I may mention that in a speech which he I would further like to read a short delivered at Edinburgh a short time extract from a book called New India, ago, when some Indian students pre-written by Mr. H. J. Cotton in 1886. sented him with a Memorial thanking In this book Mr. Cotton states that his him for his services to the people father and his grandfather had been for of India, he said— 60 years in the Indian Service, he himself for 25 years and is so still, and he disclaims the slightest disloyalty to it; but he thinks it his duty, as a servant of India and of the Empire, to express freely his sentiments. says

"I do not at all desire to see the early establishment of household suffrage throughout India, and I am sure you will not be surprised when I say so; but what I do wish to see is that there should be infused into the Legislative Councils of that country a reasonable proportion of the representative element, which will enable you, the educated natives of that country, to make your voices really heard by the Government through the Representatives of your own choosing."

Now, there is another Gentleman who sits in this House, and who always takes a distinguished part in the debates which arise upon matters affecting India. He has a thorough knowledge of that country, and his opinion will be received with respect by this House. I refer to the hon. Baronet the Member for South Worcester (Sir Richard Temple). He said, in an Indian Budget Debate in this House on 27th August, 1889

Mr. Schwann

"But the National Congress does not ask for their political enfranchisement. It asks for the general introduction into the provincial institutions of the country, which already exist, of that elective principle which we have ourselves, by Governmental action, introduced into the Municipalities. In this I think the movement wise. To my mind, British rule itself in India will be strengthened by widening its base, by the development of municipal and other elective institutions, and by the representation of these elective bodies upon Provincial Councils."

He

"The constitution of these Councils has

lately attracted much attention in the Native
Press, and I sincerely trust that public opinion
will not cease to express itself on the subject
until some radical and thorough reform has
been effected. It is not too much to say that
the present constitution of the Legislative
Council is the merest farce. Not only do
officials predominate to an extent which abso-
lutely precludes the possibility of any inde-
pendent action, but these officials consist
almost entirely of individuals who, from the
very position they hold, are unable to display
The present
any personal independence.
Members of the Council are little more than
puppets. A Native Deputy Magistrate is not
inclined to offer advice unacceptable to a
Lieutenant Governor to whom he owes the
honour of his appointment, and on whom he

depends for his prospects in the service. The excellent and faithful agents of the rich and powerful zemindars, who now enjoy a seat in the Bengal Council, would as soon bite off their tongues as place themselves in opposition to Sir Rivers Thomp son. No blame to them They act in accordance with the antecedents of their own order, and of their fellow-country

men of the old style. The very essence of their creed is subservience to authority. Is there one among their friends and associates who would justify their action if they were to place themselves in opposition?"

ther India is ripe for a further extension
of the elective principle. This Housė
ought not and cannot throw its respon-
sibility on the shoulders of any Viceroy
or any official, however high-minded he
may be.
I have, therefore, great

pleasure in moving my Amendment.
Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, no reform of the Indian Councils which does not embody the elective principle will prove satisfactory to the Indian people or compatible with the good government of India,”—(Mr. Schwann,) -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

We may be sure of one thing, that the
Indian people will continue to make
claims which will be irresistible be-
cause they are just and reasonable,
and that we must be prepared for
some changes if we really mean to
carry out the reforms which are re-
quired. The House of Commons has,
in the past, not taken a great deal of
interest in Indian affairs, but I must
say that when it has interfered with
regard to them, it has, as a rule, ac-
cording to my experience, been for the
benefit of India. Therefore I can re-
commend it to use its powers on this
occasion. I submit that if the Manipur
question had been submitted to the
House, much gratuitous mischief would
have been prevented. Its interference
with the Opium Traffic and “Abkari
have been fraught with good, also the
discussion on the restoration of the
Maharajah of Cashmere was not use-
less. Perhaps the House is not aware
that that Prince was restored to the
Throne a few weeks ago by the Viceroy
on his late journey to Cashmere. I
do not propose to go into these matters
on the present occasion. The ques-in his opinion-

MR. W. E. GLADSTONE (Edinburgh, Midlothian): I should wish if in my power to curtail this Debate, so far at any rate as any controversial element is concerned. I do not speak of the information, the knowledge and the experience which may be brought into this Debate by Members competent to enter into an examination of Indian affairs, but so far as controversy is concerned I should hope it may be compressed within narrow limits. have before us a Motion on the part of the Under Secretary of State for India that this Bill be now read a second time. We have on the other hand before us the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. Schwann), who asks the House by that Amendment to declare that

We

"No reform of the Indian Councils which

does not embody the elective principle will prove satisfactory to the Indian people or compatible with the good government of India."

tion now to be dealt with is the constitution of the Legislative Council. It is proposed that there shall be four additional Members. It seems to me that that is a totally inadequate addition, looking to the number of Members on the Well now, Sir, I ask myself the quesViceregal Council. It is evident that tion whether there is between the the question is one which deserves the Bill now before us, and the Amendgreatest attention. I think that the ment of my hon. Friend such a differbest rampart we could have ence of opinion or of principle as to against a Russian invasion is the make me desirous of going to an issue loyalty and attachment of a happy and in respect of that difference. Uncontented people. I have produced a doubtedly, Sir, if I look at the Bill I great deal of weighty evidence, not of am disposed to agree with my hon. Radical Members of Parliament, nor of Friend that taken by itself its language pushing Babus, but of men who have is unsatisfactory in so far as it is amborne the burden of the Viceregal power, biguous; but then, Sir, I have the with regard to the question, and the advantage of an authoratative comHouse will be able to judge for itself whe-mentary. The hon. Gentleman the

Under Secretary of State for India has | hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary did introduced this Bill to our notice in a embody in his speech was the elective very comprehensive and lucid speech. principle in the only sense in which he If I were to criticise any portion of that could be expected to embody it. My speech it would be the portion in which construction of that speech is-and I do the hon. Gentleman addressed himself not think it admitted of two constructo the consideration of the Amendment tions, especially considering the referbefore the House. It appeared to be ence the hon. Gentleman made to the his object, or at all events I thought it speeches of Lord Kimberley - my was the effect of his language, to put construction of that speech is that it is upon that Amendment the most hostile the intention of the Government and construction it could bear, whereas the intention of the House of Lords, in I desire to put on the speeches which we are now invited to concur, that we have heard on the Bill that a serious effort shall be made to not the most hostile, but the least consider carefully those elements which hostile and least controversial con- India in its present condition may struction to which they are susceptible. furnish for the introduction into the Now, Sir, while the language of the Councils of India of the elective prinBill cannot be said to embody the ciple. Now, Sir, if that effort is elective principle, yet, if it is not meant seriously to be made, by whom is it to to pave the way for the elective be made? I do not think it can be principle, it is in its language very made by this House except through the peculiar indeed. It was, I believe, medium of empowering provisions. The suggested by a Nobleman in the hon. Baronet the Member for one of House of Lords, friendly to the the Divisions of Worcester (Sir R. elective principle, that unless it Temple) has spoken at some period of were intended to leave room for some proposing a plan of that kind; and I peculiarities not as yet introduced in have observed on more than one occasion the Indian system in the appointment with pleasure, the genuinely liberal views of the Members of the Indian Councils of the hon. Baronet, with respect to under this Bill, it would have been a Indian affairs and to the Government very singular form of speech to provide, of the Indian people; and were he to not simply that the Governor General produce a plan of that kind, I have no might nominate, but that he might doubt it would contain a great deal make regulations as to the conditions that was wise, a great deal that was under which such nominations, or any useful, and a great deal that would be of them, might be made either by honorable and agreeable to the spirit himself or by the Governor General in of an Assembly such as this. But I Council. It is quite plain that those doubt if, even under such enlightenwho framed that language, and we ment, it would be well or wise on our must assume also those who part, with our imperfect knowledge, to adopted that language and have sent proceed with the determination of the for our consideration a Bill couched in particulars of any such plan. The such language, had in view something best course we could take would be to beyond mere nomination. Now, Sir, commend to the authorities of India I come to the speech of the hon. what is a clear indication of the Gentleman the Under Secretary of principles on which we desire them to State for India. That speech appeared proceed. It is not our business to to me, I confess, to distinctly embody devise machinery for the purpose of what is not very different from the Indian Government; it is our business assertion of my hon. Friend in his to give to those who represent Her Amendment, except as to this im- Majesty in India ample information as portant point-that the Under Secre- to what we believe to be sound tary proposes to leave everything to principles of Government; and it is of the judgment, the discretion, and the course the function of this House responsibility of the Governor General to comment upon any case in of India and the authorities in India; which we may think they have but, otherwise, apart from limita- failed to give due effect to those tion, I think I may fairly say what the principles; but in the discharge of

Mr. W. E. Gladstone

their high administrative functions, or materials.
as to the choice of means, we should
leave that in their hands. It would be
a great misfortune if, with imperfect
information, we were to indicate
leanings which might tend to embarrass
them in the discharge of the duties of
an office so highly responsible. It is
quite evident, without any disparage-
ment to the remarks of my hon. Friend,
that the great question we have before
us-the question of real and profound
interest is the question of the intro-
duction of the elective element into the
Government of India. That question
overshadows and absorbs everything
else; it is a question of vital import-
ance, and also, at the same time, a
question of great difficulty. Do not let
us conceal from ourselves that no more
difficult duty has ever been entrusted
to a Governor General than the duty
of administering such a Bill as this
and giving effect to it in a manner
honourable and wise. I am not at all
disposed to ask from the Governor
General or the Secretary of State who
has communicated with him and shares
his responsibilities-I am not at all
disposed to ask them at once to pro-
duce large and imposing results. What
I wish is, that their first steps shall be
of a nature to be genuine, and whatever
amount of scope they give to the elec-
tive principle, it shall be real. There
are, of course, dangers in the way.
There is the danger of subserviency;
there is another danger, and that is the
danger of having persons who represent
particular cliques or classes or interests,
and who may claim the honour of
representing the people of India. The
old story of the Three Tailors of
Tooley Street does, after all, embody
important political truth, and
does exhibit a real danger.
It is to the Governor General's wisdom
we must trust to do the very best, and
to make the most out of the materials
at his disposal. What we want is to
get at the real heart and mind-at the
most upright sentiment and the most
enlightened thought, of the people of
India. But it is not an easy matter to
do this, although, with regard to the
view expressed by the Under Secretary
of State for India, I think we are justi-
fied in being a little more sanguine than
he was as to the amount of these

an

it

The hon. Gentleman did not indicate where such materials for the elective element in India are to be found. Undoubtedly, Sir, as far as my own prepossessions go, I should look presumptively with the greatest amount of expectation and hope to the Municipal Bodies and the Local Authorities in India, in which the elective element is already included. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment that is now before the House did valuable service in pointing out the amount of authority that can now be alleged on behalf of the introduction of the elective principle-the authority not merely of men distinguished generally for their political opinions, but of those who have been responsible for the actual administration of India. These men, after carefully examining the matter and divesting themselves of those prejudices which administration is supposed to impart, have given their deliberate sanction to the introduction of this Bill. It is there that I feel we stand on very firm and solid ground, and Her Majesty's Government ought to understand that it will be a most grave and serious disappointment to this House if, after all the assurances we have received from high quarters, that some real attempt will be made to bring into operation this great and powerful engine of government, there should not be some result which we can contemplate with satisfaction. I do not speak of its amount. I think it should be judged by its quality rather than by its quantity. In an Asiatic country like India, with its ancient civilisation, with its institutions so peculiar, with. such diversities of races, religions, and pursuits, with such an enormous extent of country, and such a multitude of human beings, as probably, except in the case of China, never were before comprended under a single Government, I can well understand the difficulties that confront us in seeking to carry out our task. But, great as the difficulties are, the task is a noble task, and one that will require the utmost prudence and wisdom to carry it to a successful consummation. But we may feel, after the practical assurances we have had from persons of the highest capacity and the greatest responsibility, we may feel justified in expecting something

to

of the House any of the jealousy of the introduction of that principle, which, if it existed, would undoubtedly form a strong mark of difference between the two parties. In reality and in substance we have the same object in view, and we are prepared to recommend the employment of the same means secure that end. If that be so, it would certainly be unfortunate that any Division should take place which though the numbers might be unequal (I certainly could not take part in any Division hostile or apparently hostile to the Bill) would, after the speech of the Under Secretary, convey a false impression. It is well the people of India should understand the truth-that united views substantially prevail in this House on this matter. My persuasion is that these views are united, and that they are such as likewise tend to the development of an enlightened and so far as circumstances will permit not only of a liberal, but of a free system. While my hon. Friend has done service in bringing this matter forward, he has really no substantial quarrel with the declarations of the Government, and I think he would do well to withdraw his Amendment and allow this Bill to receive the unanimous assent of the House, in the hope that without serious difficulty it may shortly become law, and fulfil the benevolent purposes with which it has been submitted.

more than a merely nominal beginning | sarily guarded, was, on the whole, not in this great and magnificent under- otherwise than a frank acceptance. I taking. It is not too much to do not think there is on the other side say that this great people this nation to which we belong has undoubtedly had committed to it a most peculiar task in the foundation and the government of extraneous territories. But all other parts of the British Empire present to us a simple problem in comparison with the problem which India presents. Its magnitude and its peculiarities are such as to lift the function of Great Britain in this respect far above all that any other country has ever attempted, and far above all it has itself attempted beyond the sea in any portion of the Dependencies of the Empire. I rejoice to think that a great and a real advance has been made, both before and especially since the time of the transfer of the Indian Government to the immediate superintendence of the Executive at home and the supreme authority of the Imperial Legislature. The amount of progress they made has been made by the constant application to the Government of India of the minds of able men acting under a strong sense of duty and also under a strong sense of political responsibility. All that has so far taken place induces us to look forward cheerfully to the future in the expectation that if there should be a real success in the application, the genuine even though limited application, of the elective principle to that vast community, it will be the accomplishment of a task to which it is difficult to find a parallel in history. In these circumstances I deprecate a Division on the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I see no such difference between the Amendment and the language of the Bill as ought to induce my hon. Friend to divide the House. If the language of my hon. Friend is to receive a perfectly legitimate and not a strained construction, it is only an amplification and not a contradiction of what the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary implies. I think it would be a great misfortune if the House were to divide on this sub-wished to discover any explanation the ject. There is no difference of principle disclosed, because the acceptance of the elective principle by the Under Secretary, though guarded, and neces

Mr. W. E. Gladstone

MR. J. MACLEAN (Oldham): The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has taken advantage of the speech of the Under Secretary of State for India to suggest that there is substantially no difference of principle between the Bill and the Amendment. I hope I may be pardoned for introducing a slight controversial element, but I hardly think the House appreciates the vast and far-reaching importance of the change that it is proposed to introduce into India. I listened with great attention to the speech of the hon. Member for Manchester, because I

hon. Member would give of the elective principle, but I fail to find any such explanation, and I am still at a loss to know in what manner this elective