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principle will be introduced. Person. It is significant that very often now-aally, I am not at all opposed to the in- days we hear in this House questions troduction of some kind of elective addressed to the Government as to principle into the domestic affairs of whether there are not a great many parts of India. Probably I am the more Europeans in the public service of only Member of this House who has the Crown in India than ought to hold taken any part in introducing the elec- those positions; and the Member for tive principle into the local affairs of South Donegal is frequently asking why India. Some 20 years ago Bombay the natives are not allowed to occupy was governed by the advice of a Bench the higher positions in the Executive of Magistrates, and it was mainly owing Service. The reply is that the Administo a motion which I made at a tration is English, and must be kept meeting of the Bench of Magistrates under English control. The effect of that the Government was induced to Lord Ripon's Administration was to concede to the people of Bombay the put into the heads of the natives the management of their own affairs. Sir idea that they could govern the country Seymour Fitzgerald, who was then themselves, and exclude the English Governor of Bombay, sent for me, from any exclusive rule of that country. and asked what system should be set Then grew up the Congress movement, up, and I recommended that household which begun in 1885, and went on insuffrage should be made the basis of creasing during several years, although an Elective Municipal Council. That latterly it has been on the decline. But proposal was accepted by the Govern- that movement cannot be said to reprement, and the result has justified the sent in any real sense the wishes of the experiment. But although the ex- people of India. We know that the periment has succeeded in Bombay, it Europeans, as a community, all stand must be borne in mind that Bombay aloof from it, although a European here holds an exceptional position in India. and there of fantastic ideas may give it It is a town which somewhat re- the benefit of his assistance. Are the sembles one of the old free cities of the Mahomedans in favour of the moveGerman Empire. Bombay is the ment? I have myself presented several second city in the whole of the Petitions to the House, and so has the British Empire in point of popula- hon. Member for South Worcestershire, tion, and the natural beauty of its situa- from most enlightened Mahomedan tion, the magnificence of its buildings, representative bodies in India protestand the public spirit of its citizens, make ing against any concession being made it not unworthy of this proud posi- to this National Congress movement. tion. In Bombay there is a community The Parsees, as a community, are also which is gathered from all quarters, opposed to it. In fact, it is only a but among whom English influence movement promoted by the Hindoos, prevails. There are not there, as in and they themselves are divided in their other parts of India, great nobles who opinion upon it, for many of the most lament the loss of the power they for- enlightened Hindoos have protested merly enjoyed; there is not the against the movement. The Hindoos same strict separation of castes ; are the majority of the people of India, there is a strong body of Parsees, and it is only natural that the Mahomeand certainly there is more freedom dans should be afraid of what might there than there is in other parts of happen to themselves if they were India. Whatever may be suited to governed by a Legislative Body conBombay is not therefore necessarily taining a majority of men bitterly suited to other parts of India. What opposed them in race and is more, the good feeling which pre- religion. venture to say that vailed in the Anglicized Indian com- Representative Government has munities of 20 years since does not nowhere succeeded where antipanow exist. Lord Ripon broke up the thies of race and religion have preentente cordiale between Europeans vailed. I doubt whether Representative and natives, and created the anti- Government has been a success any. English agitation which now finds where in the world except in England expression in the Congress movement. and some English-speaking communities



abroad; and I doubt whether Repre- thing of the kind, and that observasentative Government could be con- tion ought not to pass without instant tinued here, or whether we should not contradiction. The hon. Member says be plunged back into civil war if issues of we wish to disturb English rule in a most vital and fundamental character India. We wish to do no such thing, were raised in this House affecting the but we wish to make English rule more Constitution of the country. It is only beneficial to the natives of India. where there is agreement upon the

MR. MACLEAN : There is another main foundations of Government that

point I wish to dwell upon in order to it is possible for representative in-show the danger it would be to the stitutions to succeed. The hon. Member pre-eminence of English rule in India for Manchester (Mr. Schwann) tells to make a change of this kind. A very us a great deal about the education we have given to the people of great and important change has been

made in India during the 14 years in India. But merely intellectual

which I have been absent. You have education, which does not touch changed the whole political system of the morals, manners,


India, and shifted the centre of power of a people, cannot change their from Bombay and Calcutta away up to character or give them that sobriety the North-West. That being so, and and robustness of disposition which is the system of Government having essential to the smooth and even work, become more exclusively military than ing of representative institutions. I

before, what would be the effect of suppose the Barons who could not placing the control of the finances or sign their names to Magna Charta might military affairs of India in the hands be as trusty statesmen as Burke or of men chiefly belonging to the lower Macaulay; and amongst the most

Provinces and not to the North-West illiterate English peasants, who belong Provinces at all? Sir Charles Dilke to a race that has the love of freedom has been quoted as being in favour of instinctively in its life-blood, and who this understood the principle of self-govern National Congress. He has written a

movement promoted by the ment and respected the rights of individuals almost before the dawn of Britain ; but perhaps its defect is that

very interesting book on Greater history, there are those who would be he tries to make friends with everyfar more capable of attending to the body all round, and consequently often administration of public affairs than the defends a system in one page which he most cultivated Bengalee who ever shows to be utterly impracticable in discoursed as fluently as the Member the other. I will read à sentence in for Midlothian himself upon political which he refers to the National Coninstitutions. In saying this, I, of course, do not wish to cast any reproach gress. He sayson the people of India. They have a “We are not driven by considerations which civilisation of their own, which in some touch their happiness to work towards the

unity of India, but in the development of the respects may be perhaps occasionally provincial system which ought gradually to superior to ours, but you are run- create a federal India, except for fiscal and ning a great

great risk in proposing military purposes, the natives must undoubto transfer a large portion of tedly take a leading part.” the administration of India to Do hon. Members appreciate the men like the Bengalees, who have been gravity of the restriction he there places slaves, nay, the bondsmen of slaves, for upon the development of the elective fifty generations. That is simply a physi- principle? He says he is in favour of ological fact. There is another element some advance in the Provincial Councils of danger in this proposed change, for, if towards the introduction of the elective you are going to place real power in principle, but he also says that these the hands of these men, you will dis- Councils are not to touch either finance turb the pre-eminence of English rule or military affairs-in India. The hon. Member opposite

“We must have British military supremacy," wishes to do that.

he adds, "sufficient to preserve peace, and MR. MAC NEILL (Donegal, S.): I British control sufficient to raise the necessary beg pardon; I do not wish to do any- taxes and to prevent the imposition of Customs

Mr. J. Maclean

duties. Our first duty in India is that of Dufferin's opinion and what ought to defending the country against anarchy and be done. He has, no doubt, temporised invasion."

in some of his Despatches, but we Nobody can say that a man who writes know what he really thought of the in these terms can be taken to be in Indian National Congress when he favour of the programme of the made his celebrated speech in Calcutta National Congress. In another chapter on 1st December, 1888, in which, he gives an argument which turns the describing the promoters of the Congress whole proposal of the hon. Member for

movement, he saidManchester into ridicule, for he says

“Who and what are the persons who seek to “I have formed a distinct opinion that we wield such great powers--that would tempt should cease to enlist men from the unwarlike ths fate of Phæton and sit in the chariot of races. We have already ceased to enlist Ben- the sun ? They are most of them the product galees, and I should wish that the same prin- of the system of education which we have ourciple should be extended, and that we should selves carried on during the last 30 years. no longer enlist men from Southern India. No Out of the whole population of British India, one would dream of sending Madras, Bombay, which may be put at 200,000,000 in round numor down country infantry regiments against bers, not more thau 5 or 6 per cent. can read Russians."

and 'write, while less than 1 per cent. has any MR. SCHWANN : Is that quotation mass of the people is still steeped in ignorance.

knowledge of English. Thus the overwhelming from the last edition of Sir Chas. During the last 25 years probably not more Dilke's book? There are two editions than 500,000 students have passed out of our of Greater Britain, and the extract schools with a good knowledge of English; I gave is from the edition not three smattering. Consequently, it may be said

there being perhaps 1,000,000 more with a weeks old.

that out of a populatiou of 200,000,000 only a MR MACLEAN : This is from the very few thousands possess an adequate qualiProblems of Greater Britain, and fication, so far as an acquaintance with West

ern ideas or even Eastern learning are connot the original book of Sir Chas. cerned, for taking an intelligent view of those Dilke. I may point out that what his intricate and complicated economic and politiopinion really amounts to is that we cal questions affecting the destinies of many are bound to preserve in our own millions of men that are almost daily presented

for the consideration of the Government. I hands the military and financial would ask, then, how could any reasonable control of India

Now, what man imagine that the British Government would be the result of having a Legis- would be content to allow this microscopic lative Assembly in which the natives of minority to control the administration of that Bengal and Madras and Bombay would safety and welfare they are responsible in the

majestic and multiform Empire for whose be in an overwhelming majority as eyes of God and before the face of civilisation ? compared with the Representatives of It appears to me a groundless contention that the Punjaub and the warlike Northern it represents the people of India. Is it not races? Here you have it confessed are already becoming alarmed at the thought

evident that large sections of the community that you cannot rely on troops from the of such self-constituted bodies interposing Southern districts of India, and yet between themselves and the august impartiality you are to give the natives of those of English rule ?” districts a majority in the Legislative That extract conveys the real sentiment Councils, so that the warlike races are of Lord Dufferin in regard to the aims to do all the fighting and the unwarlike and intentions of the National Congress. races are to hold the power of the purse. They may be disguised for a time until Can anybody imagine a more absurd the British Parliament is deluded into system of government than that, or making certain concessions which will suppose that British rule would last in pave the way for further concessions, India if the warlike races were sub- but the aims and intentions are still jected to a rule of that kind? Hon the same as they were when Lord Members attempt to minimise the im- Dufferin described them in such accuportance of the concession which the rate language. I will say no more in National Congress demands; but it regard to the Amendment, but I should you once make this fatal concession, of like to make one or two comments upon course the people of India will want the Bill brought forward by Her the power of the purse also, and they Majesty's Government. When the never will be satisfied until they get it. Under Secretary of State quoted Lord A great deal has been said about Lord Kimberley's speech in the other House,

I asked whether the Government ac- | both Houses of Parliament. It is cepted that statement as describing absolutely essential that if the principle their intentions in bringing forward of election is introduced at all, it this Bill, and I was somewhat surprised should have the direct and immediate that he gave an unconditional assent. sanction of both Houses of Parliament,

MR. ČURZON: I should say that for that is the only way in which we I did not mean that the language of should be able to prevent a dangerous Lord Kimberley expressed the inten- application of the new system. I tions with which the Government had think the concessions in the 2nd secbrought forward this Bill, but on behalf tion of this Bill will not satisfy anyone, of the Government I did not dissent because practically they lead to nothing from the interpretation put by Lord When the Secretary of State for India Kimberley upon the possible application introduced this Bill in the House of of a particular clause.

Lords he said it was an unimportant MR. MACLEAN: I think that means measure ; but I look upon it as the same thing. The Government does the most important measure which not exclude the principle of election has been brought forward since from this Bill; but it leaves it in the the whole constitution of the Governpower of the Governor General in ment of India was changed after Council, with the approval of the Secre- the great Mutiny of 1857. There is no tary of State in Council, to make regu- greater danger connected with our lations as to the conditions under which Government of India than that we persons shall be chosen for appoint- should make it the field for experiment ment to the Legislative Councils. in constitutional changes. It has With all respect to the right hon. always seemed to me that there was Gentleman the Member for Midlothian, something profoundly mournful in I maintain that when Parliament is the poet's description of Venice in the making a change of this sort it should days of her decadence :-know exactly what it is doing and

"Once did she hold the gorgeous East in fee, should not allow the principle of elec And was the safeguard of the West." tion to be brought in by a side wind. If we were to pass a measure of that England is a greater and a nobler sort we should be playing into the Venice, and she holds the gorgeous hands of Party Government in regard East in fee,” and is the safeguard of to India, and none of us would wish to the West” in a far_larger sense than

But if we wish to do that in the management of Indian ever Venice was. affairs. Let us suppose, for example, lose these glorious titles to the respect that a Liberal Government came into and admiration of mankind, we canoffice, and we had Lord Ripon as

not take a súrer step towards attaining Secretary of State for India, and Lord that end than by making India a field Reay as Governor General, would not for rash and ruinous experiments these two noblemen strain every clause which strike at the foundations of the of this Bill for the purpose of intro- Empire acquired and bequeathed to us ducing an elective system which would by the wisdom and valour of our suit the views of their friends the

forefathers. Members of the National Congress ? (7.25.) MR. MAC NEILL (Donegal, It is extremely dangerous to leave such s.): I cannot congratulate the hon. Mema power to whoever may be Secretary ber opposite on acting on the wise preof State or Governor General for the cept laid down by the right hon. Gentletime being; and when this Bill is in man the Member for Midlothian, that we Committee I shall propose an Amend should refrain from making this Debate ment, which I hope the Government of a controversial character. I shall will take into their serious considera- not enter into matters of a controversial tion, providing that the regulation for character, because the issues at stake the choice of Members of these Legis- are so enormous; but I wish to ask the lative Councils which are to be made Under Secretary of State for India for by the Governor General in Council, a deliberate statement upon an imwith the approval of the Secretary of portant point. The right hon. Member State in Council, shall be submitted to for Midlothian accepted to the full the

Mr. Maclean

statements of the hon. Gentleman with on our stay there being profitable to reference to the admission of the the people, and our making them representative principle, and they were understand that, and later on made in the presence of Lord Cross said — who was seated upstairs, and of the “ It will not do for us to treat with conLeader of the House, without any ex- tempt or even with indifference the rising pression of dissent or of disapproval aspirations of this great people." being made. But now a thick and the right hon. Gentleman has said thin supporter of the Government practically that same thing to-night. accuses the right Member for Midlothian and I charge Ministers that they must of taking a tactical advantage of the not deceive themselves in this matter. Indian Government. I wish to know The Under Secretary said this was not whether the Government accepted the a very great measure; I consider it a principle of representation or not? I great measure, though small compared believe they have done so, and in that with what we were promised six years belief I shall modify the speech I ago. The noble Lord the Member for intended to make. Four years ago the Paddington (Lord R. Churchill), when hon. Member for Oldham made himself

a responsible Cabinet Minister, unconsciously the agent for stirring up in introducing his Indian Budget religious animosity between Hindoos in August, 1885, pledged the Goand Mahomedans, and his observa-vernment to give full administrative tions in this House were warmly re- reform to the Government of India. pudiated in the Indian Congress by a That promise is to be fulfilled by this Mahomedan gentleman. The hon. Bill, which comes down here for conMember for Oldham has quoted the sideration, after having been proposed substance of Lord Dufferin's speech; in another place two and a half years but Lord Dufferin, when he delivered ago. The four principles now embodied it, was under an absolute mistake as to in the Bill are mainly due to the what was aimed at by the National Indian National Congress, and yet Congress and the Party of reform. those who at that Congress suggested He thought they wished to cap- these very reforms were for years ture the Executive Government, subject to wicked misrepresentation. but they wish to do no such thing: The Times said in those days that India If the principle of election were carried had been won by the sword and should out to the fullest extent the Indian be kept by the sword. But the feel ing Councils would be nothing more than on both sides of the House have consultative; the Bill has guarded that changed since that, and we endeavour carefully. It would be possible for the to elevate these suffering millions, and Governor General to destroy all their make their lives better. The Quarterly legislative arrangements or to carry Review said that the Indians are not any Statute in the teeth of these fit for self-government and called them bodies. When Lord Dufferin said the a race of liars. Professor Goldwin Reform Party wished to gain su- Smith said that the concession of the premacy or controlling power over the smallest reform to India would lead Executive Government he misunder to universal anarchy. Lord Salisbury stood the change which the representa-saidtive principle would make. The “I do not see what is the use of this political Indians would not be allowed to legis- hypocrisy; it does not deceive the natives of late ; the Councils are consultative and India ; they know perfectly well they are not legislative in the true sense. When governed by a superior race.” I interrupted the hon. Gentleman he As a superior race it is our duty to misunderstood me, and I tried to show mercy to these people. I take it explain myself by saying that English that this Bill gives representation to men or Europeans ought to leave India India, and that the House will not be if they did not stay there for the deceived in the matter. In regard to benefit of the people. I adhere to that the theory of the hon. Member for absolutely. The right hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Maclean) as to the selecMidlothian said in his Limehouse tive principle I will give an illustration. speech that our time in India depended A Maharajah of the North West

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