Provinces was appointed a Member of | The differences between Hindoos and the Supreme Council, and he could not Mohammedans were, till the English speak a word of English, and was not Government came in, not religious but allowed to have an interpreter. After political, and the great administrator, the meeting a relative asked him how Akbar, placed religious toleration in he got on. The reply was— the forefront of his programme, making all creeds equal in the sight of

"At first I found it very difficult, but then there was the Governor General who elected me, and when he raised his hand I raised mine, and when he put his hand down I put

down mine."

The Indian Government wants men who will give a fair and independent expression of opinion, who will be backed in their opinion by the knowledge that they represent the feeling of hundreds of thousands of their fellow-subjects, and truly represent their ignorance and prejudices. Edmund Burke said that the statesman would not be worthy of the name of statesman who did not consult the ignorance and prejudices of the people. We want to know what these people think. The hon. Member for North Manchester (Mr. Schwann) | quoted a number of authorities in favour of the representative principle; I have studied a great deal of literature on the subject, and have found the most unlikely people in favour of it. In a book which came out in the native tongue, just after the Mutiny, and which was translated by Sir Auckland Colvin in 1887, called The Cause of the Indian Revolt, said that one of the direct causes of the Mutiny was the want of representative institutions. Sir J. Lawrence, in 1864, said that it would be to the advantage of the people of India and of the Government if the people had a voice in their own affairs. The hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir R. Temple) is in favour of a limited system of representation, and undoubtedly he would have benefited during his administration if he could have had the assistance of Indian gentlemen who were the mouthpiece of many people whom he could never reach. In 1880 a deputation of Indian gentlemen waited on Lord Hartington to press the principle of representation. The Times in 1890 admitted the principle of election, and said—

"There is no doubt of the force of the argument that nomination is not calculated to give the Government the advantage of contact with some of the important factors of

Indian society.'

Mr. Mac Neill

the law. The hon. Member for Oldham spoke at some length of the incapacity of the natives for administrative and executive functions, but yet in India there is a perfect system of self-government where the natives have shown to the utmost advantage their powers and capacity for popular self-government. In the French dominion, at Pondicherry, they have full representation. But in India there is a large English and European class, irrespective of the official class—the milling and mining interests are all manned by Europeans-who bitterly complain of the loss of rights and privileges in their new Indian life. The hon. Member for Oldham was wrong in saying that there were not many Europeans who sympathised with the aspirations of the natives. An eminent merchant, Mr. Ewell, took the chair at the Indian National Congress, and he was supported by a large party who complained that Englishmen in India were unrepresented. Everyone who is not an official is debarred from having any voice in the management of public affairs; that ought not to be. It is not good that Englishmen should be deprived of their rights, nor is it desirable that natives should be debarred from having a voice in public affairs. The hon. Member talked of the miserable poverty of these people, but that might be made riches and their ignorance knowledge if they could only send people of their own flesh and blood to set before the English people their grievances, and when they understood them they would be delighted to remove them. Mr. Bright in one of his last speeches said that India was governed by despotism, and under this Bill that proposition remains. We want these Councils to be consultative, and surely the Indian Government would be glad to get the best advice, and then to act on their own responsibility. At present no Bill is introduced into the Supreme Council

until it has first been submitted to the

Secretary of State here, and it cannot | sisting of hundreds of Members, and it be introduced if he vetoes it, and the Councils are official Councils pure and simple at present. There are only about 14 sittings of the Supreme Council at Calcutta, and then it moves to Simla. There, where the non-official Members cannot afford to follow, the greater part of the work is done. I see the First Lord of the Treasury in his place, and I think we are entitled to have from him some statement to the effect that the words of the right hon. Member for Midlothian were a correct view of the intentions of the Government, and that they intended to do their best to secure more representation for the people. I believe when they realise the sufferings of the people the Indian Civil Service act fairly well towards them, and when I spoke in the contrary sense the other day the sufferings of these people were weighing on my mind. I hope if my words reached India that the Gentlemen whom they concern will believe I think they are doing their best, and that they will, if possible, increase their efforts to save the people. It is because I believe the representative principle would better enable the Government to help the people that I am in favour of this Bill.

would be impossible to say, if such a system were introduced, what sort of men would be elected, and how such bodies would work. In fact, the idea is really a travesty of a responsible Government in India. But because such a representation of the people is impossible in this sense, it does not follow that some moderate scheme within sensible limits might not be propounded. And my plan would be simply this. It is now proposed that 16 additional Members (presumably natives) should be given to the Legislative Council of the Government of India. Well, I suppose they might be elected by 16 selected cities in various parts of the great Indian dominion. Of course I should like to select the cities, and they would be so chosen as to represent as nearly as possible the various sections of the population. It would be essential to provide for a minority representation, and certain cities should be chosen that would evidently elect Mahomedans. All these cities that I should select would be places which had the elective principle in force within them, both for municipal and local purposes, and where, therefore, the idea of elec

*(8.33.) SIR R. TEMPLE (Worcester, tion would be familiar to the citizens. To such a scheme as this there Evesham): I must begin by referring is the obvious objection that these in very thankful terms to the kind cities do not represent the country manner in which the right hon. Gen--that is to say, the country in our tleman the Member for Midlothian sense of the term, as contradisalluded to me. He adverted, among tinguished from the town. But, neverother things, to a plan of my own which theless, their inhabitants would form I have more than once mentioned in the various forms of thought and sentifair specimens, samples, and types of this House, and again this evening I ment that reign in that vast populahave been challenged to say in general tion, and they would be great centres terms what it was. My plan always of native thought, activity, and inhad reference to the Bill before the dustry. So far there would be, not an House and to the rules which, accord- adequate, but a limited representation ing to it, are to be framed; and upon a scheme that is perfectly practicit will be found a modest plan and able; and because perfect representacontained in very brief compass. In the tion of town and country is impossible, first place, I must admit that to formu- that is no reason why we should not late any scheme which would in any have, at all events, some representation proper sense represent the population of the towns. Then, according to that of India is an absolute impossibility. plan, it would be necessary that the You might theoretically construct a Government should always provide system whereby constituencies could be itself with a majority, whether by formed in every district; but that nominated Members or otherwise. It would involve local Parliaments con- would not do to leave to elected

to elevate them by culture I would do ; | innocent of this idea. There are the
but as to giving them political power-
they are the very last persons I would
select. Until they show greater
moderation, greater sobriety of thought,
greater robustness of intelligence,
greater self-control-all which qualities
build up the national character-I, for
one, would not entrust them with
political power. Therefore, I am not
in favour of making any concession to
the Congress particularly. They should
be content with their place in the ranks
of their fellow-countrymen and take
their chance with them. The hon.
Member spoke of the mute multitude
of the unrepresented masses. So did
the Under Secretary for India, with
much justness. The masses in India
are indeed outside any conception of
the elective principle. Besides the
masses, who are spoken of as working
men, artizans, and labourers in the
field, there are distinct sets of classes
who are thoroughly outside any electoral
idea. Perhaps the most important
class in India are the village headmen.
They have withstood the shock of
revolution and the stress of war, and
they have come out of it like gold
refined by fire. These men, though
quite representative in their way, are
thoroughly outside any idea of any
electoral system. Then take the great
landholders. When I was at the
Imperial Assemblage at Delhi, I had
of an evening in my reception tent a
group of men whose total rental was
not less than half a million sterling-
they never dreamt of election. Tens
of thousands of small landowners are
of the same mind. But besides land-
owners there is the great class of
peasant proprietors. They are every-
where, from Cape Comorin to the
Himalayas, and constitute the very
backbone of the Indian population.
They are wholly outside this idea.
Then there are the frontier chiefs,
the men who dominate the border,
who keep back marauders and robbers,
and who are the wardens of the
marches all around the frontiers of
India. They never heard of election.
Take the hill tribes scattered all over
the country; their hills are just like
the bones in the physical body, or the
arteries. All these tribes are thoroughly

martial races that supply not only the
foot soldiers and the troopers, but also
the native officers for the Infantry and
Cavalry. I say these men never heard
of election. Then take the purely
peaceful races: the native bankers and
traders who have accounts in every
village, and also transactions extending
over Asia into Europe, and even on to
America; the shopkeepers, who are a
numerous class in every town, in every
village; the still more important class,
the proprietors of ships and boats, the
men who circumnavigate the Indian
Peninsula, who conduct an inland
navigation on the great rivers, not sur-
passed in extent in any part of the
world; all these men are outside the
idea of election. Then we come to the
priests, both Hindu and Mahomedan,
who live in the recesses of temples and
mosques, in cloisters and shrines, but
yet who have potent influence over the
lives of the people from the cradle to
the grave. These men think nothing
of the principle of political election.
Take the Brahmins, who study the
ancient Sanskrit, the men who look
back to the dawn of ancient civilisa-
tion, and who are the repositories of
the religious traditions of the country;
the Mahratta Brahmins, the representa-
tives of an Imperial as well as a priestly
race; and, lastly, the men of what I
may call the old school-those men
who look back to the ancient régime,
who regard all Western civilisation as
an evil. All these would abhor the idea
of election. I ask the House to reflect
on the great variety and importance of
the classes I have mentioned, and hon.
Members will see what a powerful
phalanx they compose. Take the
masses, and all these classes together,
-what remains of the whole popula-
tion? Why, nothing, except the few
thousands who form the National
Congress and they are the only
advocates of the elective system. But,
further, we have the Mahomedans;
they are actually opposed to such a
system. I have myself submitted
representations on their behalf, and
have promised to watch their interest
in reference to this Bill. They are
anti-Congress' out and out. They
know that they form
a very im-