taken entirely out of the hands of the Government has at command, that it Scotch Members, and that the Debate should be more or less made into a pracbecame a discussion dealing with the ticable shape to be submitted to the whole question of the private Bill pro House, and in some way redeem the cedure of this House, and not with the pledges which the Government perfectly, point relating to the operations of that honestly, and wisely took on this subject, which relates exclusively to Scotland. I think we are entitled to question the The critics may be divided into two cate purpose which the Government has in gories. In the first place, there were view. I would ask the right honourable those who were perfectly contented with Gentleman the Lord Advocate to believe the present private Bill procedure in this that some of us on this side of the House House. On the other hand, there were are perfectly honest in our desire for those who were not contented with the some reform of private Bill procedure for procedure. I feel that there is a neces- Scotland, and I would further ask that sity for considering this subject, and, if the right honourable Gentleman would it is to be treated with consideration and frankly tell us what is the purpose for care, and its importance recognised by which this Motion is now brought forthis House, we may reasonably ask the ward, and what the Government means right honourable Gentleman the Lord to d with this Bill. Advocate for a little more explanation and information about this Committee, and the purposes for which it is to be appointed. I am sorry to be importunate, but the right honourable Gentleman will admit that on June 9, within two months of the end of the Session, it is asking more than can reasonably be expected that this Bill should go to a Committee such as was outlined in the Debate on the Second Reading and then pass through all its stages in both Houses and become law at the end of this Session. I would respectfully ask whether Her Majesty's Government are really going to attempt to remodel all the private Bill procedure of this House, or if the project of the Government is to be limited to an endeavour to beat this Bill into a shape which will then be presented to the House as acceptable and as suited to the people of Scotland. If the first is the purpose of the Government, if they are seriously going to undertake an inquiry into the whole private Bill procedure of this House an inquiry, perhaps, involving a change in the private Bill procedure not only for Scotland, but for other parts of the United Kingdom-then I am heartily with the right honourable Gentleman, and shall be glad of another opportunity of furthering the project of the Government. But if this scheme, which was condemned by experts and by those well acquainted with the private Bill procedure of the House, and is one of several schemes which have proved abortive, is to be submitted to a Select Committee in order, with the force which the Captain Sinclair. SIR C. CAMERON (Glasgow, Bridgeton): I think the honourable Member for Aberdeen deserves credit for having given us an opportunity for this discussion. It may be that the opportunity for taking exception to the constitution of the Committee is when the Committee comes to be named, but what, in the first place, I wish to know is what the Committee is going to do, and generally what its functions and objects are. In any case, a Select Committee may perform one function which may be of great utility, or another which will be extremely mischievous. Reference has frequently been made to a Committee consisting almost entirely of Scotch Members to which were relegated Scotch Bills. That Committee went through a Bill clause by clause, but without taking any evidence as to the effect of the clauses. If it had been proposed to send this Bill to a Committee of that sort, which would go through it clause by clause, as in the case of the Police Bill, I should say the result might be to bring back the Bill in such a form that it would not be entitled to command our confidence and respect. On the other hand, if, as the First Lord of the Treasury has said, the Committee is to take evidence on the various points of detail in the Bill and go into the clauses with a determination to put the evidence fully and fairly before the House, then very good work may be done. But I doubt very much whether it is work that will be productive of any Grand Committee. There are a number good this Session. The Committee can- | honourable Member who has just sat not sit for a week or ten days yet, and down that a Select Committee on this by that time so little of the Session will Bill would examine witnesses. The Chairbe left that if the Committee can manage men of Committees of both Houses and to get through the Bill and work it into the Secretary for Scotland are witnesses, some shape to be brought forward next I think, obviously called for, in any conSession, it will be doing quite as good sideration. Whether the Committee will work as can be expected from it. The go farther, and take evidence from First Lord of the Treasury has told us Scotland, is another question. There again and again that he is opposed to is one question which I hope the the erection of Scotch Grand Committees, reference to the Committee will inas involving a constitutional change and clude, and that is the power to discuss a dangerous interference with this the whole question of fees charged to the House; but it must not be forgotten that promoters of private Bills. Those fees one of the most important and valuable are one of the great objections to the Acts relating to Scotland passed of late years the Local Government (Scotland) or small Bills, and I think the work of present system with regard to ordinary Act-was passed in a satisfactory shape the Committee would be very incomplete entirely owing to the work of a Scotch if the terms of this reference were not of details in the Bill which will require large enough to enable it to express an to be looked into, and regarding which it opinion on that kind of subject. Sir, I is most important that full evidence do not think that there is occasion to should be taken, such as the constitution enter into the merits of the Bill on the of the tribunal which is to be entrusted present occasion; but, however I may with the local inquiries. We have not criticise its merits, I do think that n yet had placed before the House anything their proposal to refer the Bill to a Select like a satisfactory statement on the point, Committee instead of a purely Scotch which is the very mainspring of the Committee, the Government are taking whole proposal, and it is most important an absolutely logical and right course. that, before proceeding with legislation, It is not a purely Scotch question at all; we should have the information. Com- it is an Imperial question. It affects plete evidence should also be taken re- Scotch procedure on the one hand, and garding the machinery for Provisional it far more affects the procedure of Orders. This is a highly technical Parliament on the other. It appears to matter, and it is most important that full evidence should be given to the Committee on the point, so as to avoid that complication of systems and that hopeless jumble which would result if the machinery were unsuitable. Lastly, there is the question of what should be the functions, or if there should be any functions, of the chairman of the Joint Committee of the two Houses. I think, however, the best plan would be not to press this Amendment to a division, but to remain satisfied with the statement of the First Lord of the Treasury, that the Committee should largely consist of Scotch Members, and should take evi dence on the various details of the Bill. MR. J. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick): I would point out to the me that it is a question that every Member of Parliament ought to consider as one touching himself, and one on which he is called upon to express an opinion. He ought not to look at it, as honour able Members opposite have suggested, as a purely Scotch question, but as one step in the process of devolution which will apply, not to Scotland only, but to the whole country. I therefore think that the question is not ripe enough to be dealt with in this Session, and I think the Government are perfectly right ia referring it to a Select Committee, which, during the remaining weeks of this Ses sion, will have time to inquire into the question with a view to action in a subse quent Session. The question is one which affects the whole action of Parliament, and is much too important to be dealt | things when this Bill was last before the with in a hurry. Indeed, it can only be consideration of the House of Commons. properly dealt with after due delibera On that occasion we on this side of the House argued that there was a great desire for an improved system in Scotland, not CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN as affecting that large part of private tion. SIR H. (Stirling Burghs): I was not in the House when this matter was opened, but I gather from the usual sources that there was a general agreement amongst Scotch Members that the intentions and objects of the Bill are desirable, though there are a great many details open to severe criticism, and that severe criticism has been pretty freely applied. Now, Sir, it has been suggested, I think, in some quarters that there is on this side of the House a disposition hostile to the Bill. Why, Sir, it would be an extraordinary thing if we had any such disposition, because here is a proposal on behalf of the Government which concedes one thing after another, principles for which we have always stoutly contended. In the first place, there is the devolution of Parliamentary business. This is not the first time we have heard from these benches the necessity of that alteration taking place. Then there is the recognition of nationality. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Well, I am arguing against the assertions that have been freely made that the Motion on the Paper in the name of two of my honourable Friends is intended to delay the passing of the Bill, and I am delay the passing of the Bill, and I am not sure that the right honourable Gentleman himself has not in the most prominent way given expression to that imputation. THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, no! I have done nothing of the kind. SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am glad to hear that it is so, but there is a further point; and I think our position on this occasion would be made clearer if I reminded the House of certain Mr. J. P. Smith. business which concerns the great railbusiness which embraces local improve ways, but rather that other portion of ments promoted by principal municipal authorities and public bodies in Scotland. On that occasion we pointed out that there were two ways of meeting that desire on the part of the people of Scot land. *MR. SPEAKER: The right honourable Gentleman is out of order; he is dis cussing the merits of the Bill. SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I bow to your decision, Sir, but at the same time it has been imputed that the Scotch Members on this side of the House are actuated by a feeling hostile to the Bill, and I wish to point out, in order to get rid of that idea—and I will do it in a very few words that a few years ago, when the same question was before the House, we pointed out that the way to meet the difficulty in Scotland was, in the first place, by enlarging the powers of local authorities; and, in the second place, by developing and extending the system of procedure by Provisional Orders. This was the very system which we were then told by the Government was impossible, and we were met by an Yet that is the absolute non possumus. very system embodied and propounded in this Bill; so that, so far from being à priori hostile to this Measure, we are à priori entirely in favour of it, if only the method proposed is free from fault. Now, Sir, I have thought it necessary to say that, in endeavouring to avoid any trespass upon the ordinary rules of Debate, in order to make clear our position. Well, now, my honourable Friends have put down an Amendment to the effect that this Bill, being a Scotch Bill, should be referred to a Committee to which all Scotch Members should belong. Well, there is no one who would more strenuously support such a proposal than I if I thought this was a purely Question put Scotch Measure, but I think a little consideration will show anyone who takes that view that you do not make a Measure purely Scotch by merely putting the word "Scotland" in parentheses in the title of the Bill. This Bill, be it a good proposal or an imperfect proposal, at all events, is one which will establish a precedent for the other parts of the United Kingdom, and therefore Members "That the Order for the Committee be dis charged, and that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee of 17 Members." Agreed to without a Division, RESERVE FORCES BILL, Consideration of Reserve Forces Bill not connected with Scotland are not only as amended resumed. fully entitled to be heard on the subject, but to have a complete voice in the matter. When we are assured that the CLAUSE 2. Amendment proposed― "Line 3, omit the word 'member' and the Select Committee to which it is proposed the Bill shall be referred shall include a majority of Scotch Members, I feel sure insert part.'"-(Mr. Griffith Boscawen.) my honourable Friends will be satisfied that all that they ask for will be granted. I have thought it right to say these few words, because, as a general rule, on Scotch Bills I agree with my honourable Friends. I do not wish it to be supposed that in a Bill of this particular kind we are at all relinquishing our desire that Scotch opinion should be predominant in the settlement of Scotch legislation. This, however, completely differentiates from an ordinary Scotch Bill, and there fore I for my part have no other intention than to support the proposal of the Government. MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN (Kent, from Tunbridge): I understood speech of my right honourable Friend, in introducing this Bill, that what was intended was that it should be within the power of the War Office, in cases where the Militia volunteered for service abroad, to call out some *MR. SPEAKER: In putting the main question I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that this Motion would have been more regularly put down as a separate Motion than moved under an Order of the Day. I understand, however, that the Motion is brought on this day with the general consent of both sides of the House, and under the circumstances I think it will be the general wish of the House that the technical objection should be waived, and the Motion now be disposed of. of their own officers. I think myself that that is a provision which is calculated to do a great deal of good for the Militia. I think a great many Militia battalions would volunteer for service abroad, and if they were sent abroad under their own officers, it would be a good thing, and would tend to the popularity of the force. But, Sir, when I come to look at the clause, instead of, say, "part" of the Militia, or some such word as that, the word employed is "member" of the Militia. Now, instead of sending several companies under their own officers, the tendency will be to select certain individual members of the force, and send them to supplement the Line battalion, and drawing them from the Militia battalion, which is most ineffective, have been reduced to a state of things which has been described by the Commander-inChief as "a squeezed lemon." Now, I do not believe that that was the intention of the War Office, or that that is the intention of the Bill, for if that was the effect, I venture to say that it would do a great deal of harm instead of good, for if it is intended to send away individual members, that will only leave the battalions ment. weaker than they were before. Now, in honourable and gallant Friend below me order to elicit a plain statement upon in his anxiety that this clause of the Bill this point from my right honourable may not operate injuriously on the Friend, I beg leave to move this amend Militia. I do not think that everything has been done for the Militia which ought to be done, because under certain circumstances they might constitute a very valuable portion of the defences of the country, besides being able to relieve be wanted elsewhere. But I am not able battalions in foreign garrisons, who might to share the fears of my honourable and gallant Friend, and especially after the explanation given by the Under Secretary of State for War. It has always been recognised that the Militia regiments can be drawn upon to furnish men for the Line, and I think every inducement ought to be given to individual Militiamen to volunteer for the Army, with which they are incorporated, and become soldiers. It seems to me that it would injure the regiment less for individuals to volunteer for some period not exceeding a year, and then to the regiment, THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. ST. JOHN BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): I am sorry that I cannot accept the amendment of my honourable Friend, but in the statement I made on introducing the Army Esti mates I stated the object of this Bill. The first object of these two clauses is to enable the Militia to volunteer, who desire to, for active service, on certain conditions, and if they are willing to volun teer, then we shall be able to enlist those men. The object of the Amendment will be achieved when the Militia go abroad under their own officers, if they ask to go abroad under such circumstances. The main object of this clause is that the Militia battalions should have the opportunity of volunteering if they so desire, and to enable members of the Militia who are not members of certain battalions to also enlist along with them for service abroad. I hope my honourable Friend will not think that it is still necessary to press his amendment. to revert because those men, having spent some months in the regular Army on active service, would stiffen their regiment very much upon returning to it, and of course their places in it could be filled by new recruits. I certainly think, like my honourable Friend, that the Militia MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staf-officers would gladly go on active service with their regiments. Nevertheless, it ford, Lichfield): I believe that under would greatly contribute to the usefulthis system the Militia Reserve is being ness of the regiment if individual mempractically done away with, for it is being bers took their places for a time in the altered to a Reserve that can be taken ranks of the regular battalions. I think out on active service at once to fight. I that after the explanations which have simply wish to draw attention to this been given, my honourable and gallant because it is a very important alteration, Friend may not have the same apprefor this drawing of single men and single hension as he had before, and I think that on the whole it is COLONEL SANDYS officers from the Militia and putting them which it was before. *SIR J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, N.E.) I was for a good many years commandant of a Militia regiment, and I have the greatest possible sympathy with my Mr. Griffith Boscawen. a valuable (Lancashire, Bootle): As an old Militia commanding |