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EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION

(LONDON) BILL. [H.L.]

NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD WATER BILL. [H.L.]

FORRES WATER BILL. [H.L.]

ANDOVERSFORD AND STRATFORDUPON-AVON RAILWAY BILL.

BIRMINGHAM, NORTH WARWICKSHIRE, AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON

RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL.

WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.

[H.L.]

be

Report from the Committee of Selec. tion, That the following Lords proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the above Bills-namely: E. Dartmouth, L. Boston, L. Granard (E. Granard), L. Monckton (V. Galway), L. Heneage (chairman). Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Monday, the 20th instant, at half-past Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL

ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL. [H.L.]

To be read the second time on Monday next.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]

A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Colwyn Bay, Macduff, Medina River, Portsmouth Camber Quays, and Southwold-Was presented by the Lord James (for the Earl of Dudley): Then it was moved that the Sessional Order of the 8th March, 1898, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill originating in this House shall be read a first time after Tuesday, the 3rd day of May next," be dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read the first time. Agreed to. Bill read the first time accordingly; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. [No. 93.]

GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.]

Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.

House in Committee (according to

To be read the second time on Monday Order): Bill reported without Amendnext. (The Earl of Dudley.)

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL

ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.

To be read the second time on Monday next. (The Earl of Dudley.)

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL

ORDERS (No. 7) BILL. [H.L.] To be read the second time on Monday next.

ment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next.

COMMONS REGULATION (WOLSTANTON MARSH) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.

House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next.

PUBLIC

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL

ORDERS (No. 8) BILL. [H.L.]
Read the second time (according to
Order).

REPORTS, ETC.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).

(1) General Report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector on the Schools in the Northern Division of Scotland, for the year 1897;

(2) Reports and Papers relating to the Training Colleges of Scotland, for the year 1897.

TRADE REPORTS, 1898.

I.-Annual Series: Diplomatic and
Consular Reports on Trade and Finance:

No. 2112. Spain (Malaga);
No. 2113. United

land).

States

No. 2114. Turkey (Beirut);

No. 2115. Peru;

No. 2116. Africa (Congo);
No. 2117. Norway.

BUSINESS.

RELIGIOUS MINISTRATION IN

WORKHOUSES.

*LORD NORTON: My Lords, I beg to move for a Return, of which I have given notice, showing the names of the unions in England and Wales for which there are paid chaplains for the inmates of the workhouses; and also of the unions where there are no paid chaplains of the workhouses, and in such cases what religious ministration is provided for the inmates. I move for these Papers at the request of a great number of persons resident in various parts of the United Kingdom, and of several of your Lordships. Lord Mount-Edgcumbe wrote to me from abroad expressing strong interest in this subject at the present time in the West of England. The provision of religious ministration in all kinds of public asylums has been very much at heart of late, and much has been done in this direction; but of all classes of the community the inmates of workhouses have perhaps the greatest claim to that pro(Port- vision, destitute, and desolate, aged, infirm, and sick. I can hardly conceive a man so wanting in sympathy or a sense of public responsibility as to doubt that this helpless class have an imperative claim upon the State for religious ministration. The law is clear upon the subject. The poor law makes it obligatory on boards of guardians throughout the country to provide such ministration, but I am afraid the duty is largely disregarded. The Poor Law Commissioners have issued most elaborate rules upon the subject, and those rules have the authority of law; but when the Return which I am moving for is presented I am afraid the extent to which they are carried out will show a very considerable and dangerous deficiency. What is really wanted, and what is said ought to be provided in workhouses in the way of religious ministration, is that prayers should be read on Sundays. A daily prayer is generally read by the head of the workhouse, but on Sundays it is the law that this duty should be

II.-Miscellaneous Series: Reports on Subjects of General and Commercial Interest:

(Vilayet

of

No. 460. Turkey
Broussa);
No. 461. Germany (Memorandum of
German Trade in the first
quarters of 1897 and
1898);

No. 462. Germany (German Im-
ports and Exports of Iron
and Ironware and Imple-
ments, Machines, in 1896
and 1897).

resented (by command), and ordered undertaken by a clergyman. The minito lie on the Table.

stration of the Sacrament is still more

1

important in those cases in which it would be impossible for the inmates to receive it elsewhere. I think your Lordships will allow that religious consolation and aid are needed perhaps by no class more than by the helpless inmates of our workhouses. There is also the instruction of children, who, though generally, I am thankful to say, sent out to schools, are still in many cases left in workhouses, and, unless some such provision as I have referred to is made, have none. There are many inmates of workhouses who are incapacitated from attending public worship elsewhere, and who are entirely dependent upon the house provision. Cases where the unions may be unable to maintain a paid chaplain are promised other clerical ministration, and ministers of all denominations have legal access to the workhouses to attend those of their own persuasion. The provision is complete if the law were only carried out, but I am afraid it is not carried out. I have made inquiries as to the reason for this, and I find that neglect has not occurred mostly in poor unions to save the rates, but more in consequence of religious jealousy, which is now, I am glad to say, very much reduced. I believe the Return which I am moving for will show that there are a very considerable number of workhouses which have neither chaplains nor any provision for religious ministration. At all events, the Return will furnish a guide to those who are anxious to assist in workhouses where the arrangements for the purpose are insufficient. I, therefore, my Lords, move for this Return.

LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I may say, on behalf of the Government, that there is no objection to this Return being made.

Question put. Motion agreed to.

PORT DURBAN.

VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, I beg to move for any recent correspondence that may have passed between the Colonial Office or the Admiralty and the representative of the Natal Government in reference to Port Durban. In Lord Norton.

moving for this Return, I take the opportunity of correcting some of the statements I made on a former occasion, having received fuller information on the subject, and I trust my noble Friend [the Earl of Hopetoun] will not be displeased if I correct some of his statements, which were, to a certain extent, confirmatory of my own. I stated formerly that the bar at the mouth of the harbour was such as to interfere with the entrance of Her Majesty's ships, and with its being used as a coaling port. I think my noble Friend, on behalf of the Admiralty, confirmed my remarks to that extent, stating that the bar was in itself so dangerous as to render the harbour prac tically useless to the Royal Navy. Since then I have ascertained that this bar has practically disappeared, owing to the great exertions which have been made by the Natal Government to remove the obstruction. Two powerful dredg ing machines are being used, and the result of the work for the past six months has been to reduce the dangers on the bar to such an extent that vessels of very large tonnage can generally enter with perfect safety. Vessels of the Donald Currie Line, drawing 22 feet of water. pass over the bar with the greatest ease at high water, with a depth of water of 24 feet 2 inches, and at low water there is a depth of 19 feet 2 inches, so that vessels of a moderate tonnage can get in at any time. A large vessel of 9,000 tons went in the other day when not at high water, but at between high and low water, with four feet of water under her. My Lords, when you get inside the port of Natal, it is one of the finest harbours in the world, and one which offers considerable advantages to us, as will be seen when we consider what our interests are on that coast, and when we consider that along the whole line of coast from Simon's Bay, which is now used by the Royal Navy at a very inconvenient anchorage, to Delagoa Bay, from which we have been precluded by the action of arbitration, we have no harbour whatever except Port Elizabeth. Since I last troubled your Lordships on the subject I find that a railway has been constructed from Port Durban, which probably many of your Lordships may be aware is a place where there is now a wharfage for very large ships, but which is somewhat inconvenient owing

not even know, when I last spoke on the subject, that it was under consideration. I brought the matter forward on my own initiative, knowing the capabilities of the harbour, and feeling that what we wanted was a coaling station for our ships on that coast. I venture to think that the subject is deserving of the attention of the Government, and I beg to move the Motion which stands in my

name.

to the distance it is from the mouth of this magnificent harbour, which has long the harbour; and this railway goes right been spoken of as capable of being round the head of the harbour to the made one of the finest harbours in the point where the water is deep, close world. I am not holding a brief for the inside the bar. The Colonial Govern- Colonial Government in any way. I did ment propose to lay out large sums for the purpose of constructing wharves there for the more speedy coaling of ships. This railway is in direct communitation with the town of Durban and with the coalfields, which are practically inex haustible in our time. They have been surveyed by experienced mining engineers from Liverpool, who say that the coalfields are 50 miles in breadth, and that the supply of coal is such that it will last for 40 years at the highest rate of consumption. I hope, in view of our increasing interests on that coast, of the fact that we have no harbour whatever on that coast, and of the additional fact that the coal is not only inexhaustible in quantity, but excellent in quality, having been examined, and found to be only about 10 per cent. inferior to the best Welsh coal, that the Government realises the advantages which this harbour offers, and the uses to which it can be put by Her Majesty's ships. The Donald Currie and other lines invariably supply their steamers with coal there, and it is not unreasonable to hope that when the wharves of which I speak are completed the Government may have wharf set apart for the coaling of Her Majesty's ships. My Lords, I have doubt whatever, from what I have heard, that the statistics which I am laying before you are perfectly correct, and that the danger at the mouth of the harbour on the bar is practically removed. Her Majesty's ship Doris, the flagship there, is a vessel of between 5,000 and 6,000 tons, and is very much inferior in draught and bulk to many of the merchant vessels which use the harbour *THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: My Lords, without any hesitation at all. I can with regard to the question of my noble hardly believe that the Admiralty will Friend on the Cross Benches [Viscount shut their eyes to these undoubted facts, Clifden], I am not aware of any case in which are not mere hearsay, which are which a shifting bar has been dealt with not based upon false ground, but which in a satisfactory way, but if my noble are vouched for by eminent engineers Friend cares to repeat his question and who have examined the spot, and whose give me notice, I shall be happy to make reports I have in my hand. If the Admi- further inquiries, and to answer ralty turn their attention to this subject him at a future date. I am and carefully consider it, I feel sure that glad my noble Friend behind me they will decide to avail themselves of [Viscount has brought

a

no

VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: My Lords, I was very glad to hear what the noble Vis count who has just spoken said about the capabilities of Port Durban, and I hope the noble Viscount is quite sure of his facts. The information I received was not quite so satisfactory, and, even if my noble Friend is correct, that depth of water will not do for our big ironclads. What the noble Viscount is thinking about, and what we must all think of, is a coaling station on that coast for our ironclads in case of war; but I want to ask the noble Earl who represents the Admiralty whether there is any case of a bar of shifting sand being satisfactorily dealt with, so as to make passage praoticable at all times. I have heard that an easterly gale would at once set up the bar at Durban, and how long it would take to do away with the effect of that easterly gale I do not know. What we want on that coast is a man-o'-war harbour; but, even putting it at the best, I do not think Port Durban will do for our heavy ironclads.

Sidmouth]

VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: Will the noble Viscount say that there will never be a hot war in that part of the world, and that our large ironclads will not go there? Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

up this question again, because it VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: In answer to would seem that persons interested in the noble Viscount [Viscount Clifden], I Natal have taken the reply which I made should like to say that there is no large on the 16th of May on this subject as ship, of the class to which he alludes, on unappreciative of the efforts made by the that station. All the vessels on the Cape Colonial Government to improve the station are of moderate bulk. The Doris entrance into Durban Harbour, and as is the flagship, and is, presumably, the understating the results. I am most largest ship out there. She is between anxious to remove any such impression if 5,000 and 6,000 tons only, and the it exists, for the Admiralty have watched Donald Currie vessels, which go in there with the greatest interest the gradual constantly, draw much more water, and improvement of the passage over the bar are of larger tonnage. to a port whose position on a coast so notoriously devoid of harbours makes it especially valuable. During the last two or three years the possession of new machinery has added much to the power of dealing with the bar, and the period necessary to re-deepen, after temporary heaving up of sand, has been shortened. Since my noble Friend asked his first Question on this subject some fresh reports have been received from the harbour authorities, which show a greater average depth on the bar for the year 1897 than for any previous year; and even more recent information, coming through the Agent General for the Colony, points to the fact that the average will be better for this year than for last year.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

RESERVE FORCES BILL.

Brought from the Commons; afterwards read the first time; to be printed; and to be read the second time on Tuesday next. (The Marquess of Lansdowne.) [No. 94.]

House adjourned at 5.10.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, 10th June 1898.

But it must be borne in mind that when heavy seas set in these depths have always been diminished by a very considerable amount. In attempting to fix an average draught which can be considered as capable of passing the bar, a considerable reduction must be made from the maximum which has passed over it. It is difficult to fix an exact figure, but there is every reason to hope that each year it may be put higher. I trust this reply will be satisfactory to my noble Friend, and that he will not press his Motion, as it is not considered Three of the clock. desirable by Her Majesty's Government to lay the correspondence referred to, which is of an inter-Departmental character, upon the Table of your Lordships' House.

MR. SPEAKER took the Chair at

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: May I ask the BIDEFORD AND CLOVELLY RAILWAY noble Earl the date of the last communication with the Colonial Office?

*THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: I cannot give you the dates just now. There have been communications between the Colonial Office and the Admiralty since I made my reply to the last Question before the Adjournment.

Earl of Hopetoun.

BILL. [H.L.]

Ordered, that the Bill be read a second

time.

CROMER GAS BILL.

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

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