country almost to a state of barbarism, and if he could find any other source of revenue which could be applied to this purpose, surely it is his duty in the public interest to do so.

licences, they mostly come out of town revenue, and it would only be fair, in my judgment, if any provision whatever is to be made in this Act in reference to these guarantees, to have hypothecated the amount out of the agricultural grant and not out of the licences from the towns. It appears to me that there is no argument as to the £35,000, which is the sum which ought to be free from this liability, especially, Sir, as since the time when this fund was established you have kept something like a quarter of a million of money, I suppose with interest, from the purposes for which it was originally intended. There is a clear case as to the £35,000.

*MR. DILLON Will the right honourable Gentleman say how much of the cash guarantee has been issued by the Land Commissioners?

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I could not say offhand, but it is very small.

MR. VESEY KNOX: I think the contrast has been somewhat spoiled by the fact that in this Bill the agricultural grant is to be appropriated. I remember, when the Bill of 1891 was under discussion, the First Lord of the Treasury explained that the best of all guarantees was that under this Bill the whole countryside would be be interested in making every man happy. I think, from that point of view, if there was a charge that would be an excellent guarantee, surely it would be the agricultural grant rather than this charge under the Act. Surely it would be a better course to take in the event of that being necessary. Does it not occur to the right honourable Gentleman that it would be more harmful to let loose these pauper lunatics, and to leave the unions without trained nurses, than it would be if for a short space of time the agricultural grant were stopped? I venture to press that point of view upon the Chief Secretary as one that he might consider in order to ascertain whether it would be better if he has to make a change as to these guarantees to substitute the agricultural grant for the guarantees mentioned in this section. One of the worst features of the guarantees under the Act of 1891 was that, in order to carry them into operation, you would have had to reduce the

have lost sight of the fact in this Local MR. SHEE: The Treasury appear to Government Bill for Ireland that we have not got any means at present of respect of medical appliances or in aid applying the grant that is made in of salaries for medical officers and dis pensers, and we have not got any power at present of applying that particular grant.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: We are merely substituting in all these grants. MR. SHEE: What about the £35,000? MR. GERALD BALFOUR: That goes in substitution. It does seem unreasonable first of all to accept a sum in substitution for the pauper lunatics and then turn round and ask for this. Surely it ought not to come under the same rule.

MR. SHEE: How does the right honourable Gentleman propose to carry out the principle by the hypothecation of the public funds in this manner? It is only right that Members of this House should avail themselves of this opportunity to dispute tha principle, and that is the reason, I presume, that the right honourable Gentleman has put down this Amendment proposing to omit this sub-section. That is the principle in the matter, and therefore it is our duty to protest against that principle which is now being carried, and, therefore, I desire to join in this protest against pushing this principle any further than it has been pushed.

debt. Although I had an Amendment | fact that lunatics are accumulating in down earlier, I desire to raise this ques- the workhouses. The figures show that tion, which, to my mind, is one of the for a good many years past the number largest questions under this Bill. Pro- of fresh cases has remained practically vision has been made in this clause for the same. The amount of admissions gradually increasing the expenses, and is what really tests the number, and they have been gradually increasing in that rate is very low. I think the point the past and must increase in the near will certainly be reached when the adfuture. I do not think that there is missions on the one side and the cases anything to be gained by delaying the of death or dismissal on the other will progress of the Bill, and therefore I come equal, and ultimately I myself simply desire to place on record my am looking forward to an actual diminuregret that the Government have not tion in the expenditure on lunatic asyFor this reason, I treated Ireland fairly, and have not lums in Ireland. made any provision for the charges think there can be no doubt that a dimiwhich are now being transferred from nution in the expenditure will take the Imperial Exchequer to the Irish rate- place. Ireland has been the subject of payers. I believe, and I am sorry to be constant emigration during the last 50 obliged to say it, that the Government years of the best and strongest of her are taking advantage of the position in population, and the feebler part of the which we are placed, and our natural community have been left behind or anxiety to see this Bill passed, to shove have actually returned to Ireland: so on the ratepayers in Ireland a burden that Ireland is now suffering from for which, at the same time, an entirely having to support a number of lunatics insufficient provision has been made to representing a larger population. meet that burden; and, Sir, I think believe that ultimately the number of it would be unjust and unfair to ourselves lunatics will sink to a number which will and unjust to those whom we repre- be a more permanent proportion to the sent in this House, if this clause were actual population of Ireland. That, of allowed to pass without fair warning course, will mean a great saving in the being given to the Government that we rates. do not accept it as a fair provision, and that we reserve our right in the future to come to this House in case our prophecy is fulfilled, and a deficit results, and demand that that deficit should be made good.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: We have in this case followed the course adopted in England and Scotland in 1888, and we have supplied a corresponding margin because England and Scotland at that time received a certain amount from the transfer of local licences. I do not share the contention expressed by the honourable Member that there will be a large deficit. At all events, in several years-say five or six years-I think there will be an accumulation under this clause of a balance. I also do not share his gloomy view of the future as to the expenditure. Sir, there is no doubt the expenditure on lunatics at the present time is very large, and is an increas ing amount, but that increase arises not from the fact that lunacy is increasing in Ireland, but it arises from the Mr. Dillon.

I

MR. DILLON: I must say that I cannot agree with the contention of the right honourable Gentleman; although, at the same time, I have allowed the Bill to go on, and I have abstained from speaking on this subject, I feel very strongly indeed upon it. I believe the right honourable Gentleman has correctly stated that one of the great sources of trouble in Ireland is that the wretched poor ratepayers have got to support the lunatics of a population of about ten millions, of which there are only about four and a half millions now left. Ireland is now supporting and maintaining the lunatics which, in a normal condition of things, would be spread over a population of ten millions, owing to the outflow of the youngest and best part of the population from Ireland, and that still continues. That does not show any signs of diminishing, and my impression is that the increase, which the right honourable Gentleman has correctly stated, has been increasing in quite recent years, will go on increasing for

some years to come, probably, and two | looking forward to any marked diminuyears of that increase would entirely tion of lunacy in English life. Sir, what wipe out this surplus. And there is are the reasons, and what is the cause? another point which the right honour- The right honourable Gentleman has able Gentleman has omitted to indicated quite correctly that the improvedeal with. There is the improved ment in asylums causes the population treatment under this Bill for the 4,000 lunatics who are now in the workhouses of Ireland, and who are in a most miserable condition, which is a disgrace to humanity, and which must, under this new system, be rapidly improved. But this cannot be improved without great initial expense, and no provision has been made under the Bill for that additional expenditure. I daresay we may have a surplus for a couple of years perhaps, but my conviction is that before many years pass over we shall be face to face, and practically all local bodies all over Ireland will be face to face, with an increasing deficit. I only speak now for the purpose of establishing our claim that we have protested against this arrangement, which has been forced upon us, and to say that when the time comes we shall appear before this House again and demand that this deficit should be recouped.

LORD E. FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade): I am anxious to say one or two words in favour of this Amendment, because I think the argument which the Chief Secretary has used with regard to the probable diminution of lunacy in Ireland is in direct contradiction to our actual experience of what we know is the case in England in regard to lunacy, and there is nothing special, so far as I am aware, in the position of Ireland which in the least is calculated to diminish lunacy; on the contrary, the whole of the circumstances rather tend to increase it, and the reasons for an increase are not different from those under which we suffer in England. If the Chief Secretary will refer to certain documents which are now in possession of the House he will find a most interesting and important Report from the Commissioners of Lunacy in England, pointing out certain general reasons relating to the number of lunatics in asylums. He has touched upon some of these reasons, and quite correctly, but I cannot follow him that the reports justify us in VOL. LVIII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

to have far greater confidence in them, and, therefore, induces them to send in-and no longer object, as they formerly did-to send in their relatives to these asylums. And, in addition to this, the improved treatment of this distress will cause a very great diminution in the rate of mortality. It is a well known fact that the rate of mortality in asylums is very low. Therefore, I say that if asylums are going to be improved, you will find the same improvement, if I may so call it, in the rate of mortality. And so all circumstances point to the fact that you will have for a long time to come not only the same amount of lunacy, but, in all probability, an increased charge upon the rates and upon the public funds.

MR. VESEY KNOX: I entirely agree with what the honourable Member for East Mayo has said. The fact is that 10 years ago we had in Ireland a number of lunacy inspectors. These start certain improvements and create certain extra expenses. They have new ideas, and, like all new officials, they do all this and that on the principle, I suppose sorts of things. The new inspectors say that the new broom sweeps clean. The result inevitably will be increased rates.

even

The result will also be, and more particularly feelings of humanity will make people think it necessary more and more, that no lunatics shall be allowed to be at large, however harmless they may be. I certainly do think that the British Treasury has made a very good bargain indeed in getting a fixed sum, though it be a slightly increased one, in place of the various sums which wero constantly being given before. somewhat amused to find that, although the Treasury would be parading this £30,000 as a perfectly free gift and a benefit conferred upon us, when we came to discuss what this £30,000 really was, the Chief Secretary strongly argued, and rightly argued, in my opinion, that these

H

I was

contingent grants would not be increased, | always pointed out as a reason that they but, on the other hand, would be rather cannot pay off except at an enormous diminished under this Bill.

Clause agreed to.

CLAUSE 43.

Amendment proposed―

"Page 24, line 42, after accumulation,' insert ' and investment.""Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

premium. Therefore I think that specifie instructions should be given in the laying down the way in which these moneys should be invested. I cannot myself conceive why there should not be specific instructions put into the Act as to the investment of these funds. The terms ought to be dictated by the Act itself. Invest them in the public funds of the United Kingdom, and then if there is a rise we shall get the benefit of it. But if it is left in the hands of the Treasury we do not know what becomes of the money.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: We should invest these moneys in Government securities, which is exactly what this Amendment is moved to do; but what the honourable Gentleman wants is that a clause shall be so worded that we can only invest them in certain securities. Really, Sir, I think that might be left to our discretion. Honourable Gentlemen opposite must not always suppose that the Treasury is plotting for their destruction.

MR. VESEY KNOX: May I ask what the £200,000 is invested in? That will illustrate whether we can trust the Treait can be invested which do not give the sury. There are many things in which same advantages as Government funds. There are several works which are con

MR. VESEY KNOX : I should very much like to know whether it would not be possible in some way to make a few provisions with regard to the nature of the securities in which these funds should be invested. Of course, I do not suppose that honourable Gentlemen are going to take a very wide power, and an investment clause would be a very long thing; but I quite conceive that the Treasury may require to invest this money in some other securities than Government stock. I know that while there are a great many ways of getting money into the Treasury, there are a very great many methods by which the Treasury can hang it up without its producing very much interest. I also know that where they desire to make a good show they can invest it in such a manner that it will produce a great amount of interest. For instance, supposing the Government desire to make a good show, they proceed to invest the money in Irish securities, bearing considerable interest; or if they do not-it is absolutely in their own power-they can put it for investment in special funds which can never under any circumstance: depreciate in value, and where, in consequence the interest is correspondingly low. There was a sum of under £200,000 Division. under the Irish Lands Act. When that £200,000 commenced to accumulate Consols were at £94, and if that money had been invested in Consols with the compound interest it would be 30 per cent. more value than it is in these seven or eight years. I venture to hazard a guess -I have never been able to find out what it was invested in but I venture to hazard a guess that that money was invested in stocks that never depreciate, and consequently the interest is small. Upon the other hand, where stocks rise and fall, like the local loan stocks, it is Mr. Knox.

stantly creating special stocks, and those stocks are constantly being depreciated

in value.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is obviously impossible to say at the moment. Amendment agreed to

without 8

*MR. DILLON: I do not know whether the Amendment I have put down. here is necessary or not, but if it be, no doubt, the Government will accept it.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I wili ment slightly corrected. accept the honourable Member's AmendIt is obvious that you cannot lay the accounts upon the Table of the House, you can only la the audit of the same.

Agreed to.

Question put

"That clause 43 as amended be part of the Bili."

Clause agreed to.

CLAUSE 44.

Amendment proposed

"Page 25, line 11, leave out and in the case of Cork to divide the same into two ridings."-(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I accept the Amendment of the honourable Gen

tleman, although, as I understand, it is the Gentleman's opinion that the county should be divided.

I do

body

Now, I think that is a point for consideration. I quite agree that Cork is the natural centre for the county councils to meet in, and I think, if the county were divided into two counties, that in all probability Cork would be selected by both counties as the centre in which the councils should meet; but I do think, so far as my constituency goes, at all events, there is a very strong opinion upon this subject. There is a very considerable difference of opinion upon this subject in the different ridings. I have not received any resolutions from the East Riding upon the subject, but from the West Riding I have. I am quite sure it is the desire of the West Riding that the county should be one.

SIR R. PENROSE FITZGERALD: I MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The county do not know that it is necessary for me council of Cork would, of course, extend to say anything now, since the Amend- beyond 30 in number. I gave that merely ment is agreed to. as a conjecture of what the average CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.): number of members would be of the not think that a single public the county of Cork is concerned, all I can county councils of Ireland. So far as in the whole of the East Riding say is, that no question of principle is of Cork has passed or adopted involved, but representations have any resolution upon this matter. So far reached me, and they seem to be greatly as I am aware, they have not done so. in favour of the county being treated as All the resolutions have come from the a whole. West Riding of the county. Now, I do not desire in any way to oppose this Amendment, but I really do think that there is a good deal to be said for the provision in this clause with reference to the period of six months being allowed to elapse, in order that information may be gathered as to the desire of the people upon this point. There are one or two questions which I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary before I made up my mind upon this Amendment. For instance, there are 17 poor-law unions in the city of Cork, the chairman of each of which will, as I understand it, be entitled, ex-officio, to a seat on the city councils. That would give 17 ex-officio members to the county council of Cork. The right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary upon this matter gave it as his opinion that there would be about 30 members in the county council. Now the reason I ask this question is, if Cork is represented by only 30 county councillors, the chairmen of the rural poorlaw unions would always be a majority.

MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.): The right honourable Gentleman has stated that he has received a great many representations in this matter from Cork. What I should very much like to hear is who are the public bodies who have put forward those representations. So far as I have ascertained, we have received representations from three poor-law unions out of the 17, one from one board of town commissioners, one from the harbour commissioners, and from other boards, who call themselves presentment associations. I should like the right honourable Gentleman to explain to the Committee what the principal bodies are who gave these opinions, because I, as representing one in the eastern portion of the county, can state that, in my belief, there is only one opinion among them, and that is that the county should be divided into two. I do not wish to trespass on the time of the Committee further, but I do say this: if a preponderating majority is in favour of the preserving of Cork as a whole, then do it; but, so far