as the constituency I represent is concerned, the opinion is the other way about. I think we have not got sufficient evidence on the subject. The right honourable Gentleman says he accepts this Amendment. I hope he does not intend to do so without any explanations as to what public bodies have made these representations. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I could not answer that question without examining my papers, but what I have to say is, that this particular question has excited a great deal of interest, and I think I was fully entitled to draw the conclusion I did, from the fact that I have not had one single request to do otherwise. I have not carefully looked into the matter and ascertained from what part of Cork these various representations came, but if the honourable Gentleman thinks that East Cork is hardly treated, I think he can test the matter between now and the Report stage. man has MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.): But the right honourable Gentle taken care to say in this Bill, "within six months of the passing of this Act, may alter for the purposes of the election of such council the boundaries of any existing judicial county, and, in the case of Cork, divide the same into two ridings." With regard to the division of Cork, I want to know what figures he has got which he has told the Committee to-night he has not taken the trouble to analyse. The right honourable Gentleman surely might, without any harm to the Bill, take care to exercise the provision he has put in the Bill. Instead of accepting this Amendment, he might adhere to the text of his Bill. Take the six months and let the local bodies analyse the feeling and opinion of the county upon this question, and, having ascertained what the public feeling is on the matter, let the right honourable Gentleman act. If the division of Cork is found to be de sired, let it be divided. But is it perfectly fair to do so without analysing these representations which have been made to the right honourable Gentleman? I declare that those expressions of opinion are machined, and do not represent the true opinion of the county. I Mr. Abraham (Cork, N.E.). say the right honourable Gentleman has taken no pains to ascertain what was the opinion of a certain part of Cork, and if he accepts this Amendment now he is doing so without having ascertained the true opinion of the county on the matter. MR. M. HEALY: I rise to move this Amendment. I think my honourable Friends behind me are under a misapprehension as to the objects that the Government had in view in introducing this proposal into their Bill, that the county councils might divide the county of Cork. It was put into the Bill because it was conceded that the West Riding of Cork was entitled to have a county council of its own. It was proposed that the Local Government Board might divide the county if it is divided. The only object in making the division is the cost. The West Riding of Cork is so remote from the East Riding, and it might desire to have a sort of Home Rule, and set up a county council of its cumstances, all the expressions of opinion own. Well, naturally, under those cirwould come from the West Riding, because it is the West Riding which is most interested. Every public body in the West Riding is of this opinion. My honourable Friend says the opinion is machined; if that is so, I am not aware of how it has been machined. When the figures were first investigated it was sug gested that the West Riding would be hampered by any division at all, but that if any division took place it ought to be upon the basis of equal rating. When the Chief Secretary announced publicly that if there was a division it would be upon the lines of the ridings, and not upon equal ratings, public opinion of the West Riding declared against the division. Everybody in the county of Cork knows it would be impossible to make a division upon those lines. You could make no divisions in the county Cork which would not make it extremely inconvenient for the remote parts of the districts. From Skibbereen, or Bantry, and all that district, it would be extremely inconvenient to make an effective representation, if not impossible. The county has, at an enormous expense, erected a building for the use of the county council of the whole county, and if the county is now divided all that expense will have to be incurred again. No one who has examined the matter and gone into the figures can come to the conclusion that the West Riding would be at all benefited by the division; and I do say where the West Riding is unanimously opposed to the proposal that the Government are reasonably safe in accepting this Amendment. I, personally, have not the slightest interest in what is done in this matter, but I do think that the interests of the district should be considered in a matter of this kind. MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.): The opinion has not been well developed in the different districts of the county of Cork. The opinion in the East Riding is, no doubt, in favour of the proposal of the Bill, but obviously the best way out of the difficulty would be that the Members representing the county of Cork should come together and discuss this matter fully, in all its bearings, and then communicate their views upon the subject to the right honourable Gentleman. But, incontestably, if there is a well-founded opinion in the county of Cork that the proposal of the Bill should not be adopted, and there is a strong opinion in favour of the Amendment, then the Amendment should be accepted. MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.): I should like to point out to the Chief Secretary that public opinion in the West Riding was unanimously in favour of a division of the county, provided that the county could be divided on the basis of equal rating. It was only in reply to the suggestion that the county should be divided on the present lines of the ridings that I stated the West Riding was opposed to it. The East Riding is double the size, and certainly double the valuation, of the West Riding. The East Riding is £700 on the valuation; the West Riding is £300; and certainly, under the circumstances, the East Riding is entitled to a more weighty consideration than the West Riding; but as the West Riding is practically unanimous upon this subject, though I feel we should prefer a division of the county, I do not myself propose to stand in the way of this Amendment. DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid): I must say, with all due deference to the opinions which have been expressed by honourable Members of this House upon this subject, that, from the information which has come to me from the county of Cork, with reference to the division of the county, it appears to me that the opinions of both Nationalists and Conservatives, and others belonging to the county, is that there should be only one county of Cork, that there should be only one centre, and only one method of dealing with matters material to the county. The centre naturally should be the city of Cork, and I think some little time should be given to the consideration of this matter. : MR. M. HEALY: I think the right honourable Gentleman will see the connection between this and another Amendment I put on the Paper, but what I have to say now is this, that I should be quite satisfied to leave the clause as it stands as regards boundaries if the right honourable Gentleman will omit thes words. I think he has not fully appreciated the effect which those words if retained will have upon Orders in Council made under Part 6, the whole purpose of which would be destroyed. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I should like to adopt the suggestion, because I think it is desirable that some general principle should be laid down, and if the honourable Member will leave this question to me I will see what is the best way of giving effect to what is the intention of the Bill on this matter. MR. M. HEALY: I think the right honourable Gentleman might make an addition to the Order in Council which would give county boroughs the power of extending their boundaries so as to get the benefit of the Act. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, if there is nothing to prevent it. MR. M. HEALY: On that understand- to the Local Government Board in rela ing, I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. tion to the same subject, and the inhabitants of the division in county Cavan got up a memorial, and sent it to the Local Government Board praying not to be severed from the union of the county Fermanagh. I hope, therefore, "Page 25, line 28, leave out sub-section (b)." that the right honourable Gentleman will accept this Amendment. *MR. DILLON : I do not find that the Government in the Act absolutely tie the hands of the Local Government Board with regard to this question of unions being divided, and if my Amendment is accepted it will not in the least degree compel the Local Government Board to divide unions between more than two counties if they do not wish to do so. But representations have been made to me that in some cases it would be desirable to divide certain unions between more than two counties, and that it would be better in that respect to have no cast-iron rule. Of course, I do not now wish to obtain the judgment of the Committee on the merits of that question; all I seek now is that the right honourable Gentleman should leave the Local Government Board with their hands free to make the division as they may think best after full inquiry. The inquiries which the right honourable Gentleman has been making have caused the greatest possible anxiety and alarm. The whole question will have to be considered with the utmost care, and I think full opportunity ought to be given to the inhabitants and ratepayers of a district which it is proposed to transfer from one union or county to another to state their views fully before anything is done. MR. CREAN (Queen's County, Ossory): I have an Amendment down at line 29, proposing to leave out "two" and insert three," but I have been requested not to press it now. I asked the right honourable Gentleman a question as to whether he had received a memorial requesting him to enable unions to remain as they are. Under the clause it will be in the power of the Local Government Board to divide them into two if they so think fit, contrary to their expressed wish, but I do not conceive that the right honourable Gentleman can have much objection to accept the Amendment now proposed. I know perfectly well that if the arrangements now proposed are carried out, as may be seen by reference to the union map in the Tea Room, a great number of my constituents will be very much inconvenienced by being put away from the central meeting-place of the guardians of the union. They told me it would be almost impossible for them to give regular attendance to their duties if that were done. This Amendment will be only extending the powers of the Local Government Board so as to enable them to meet the views of particular unions, and I hope the right honourable Gentleman will accept it. *MR. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.): I MR. T. M. HEALY: This is a matter do not propose to say more than a few of great interest, and anyone who has words in support of the Amendment of considered it for several years past will my honourable Friend the Member for not at all wonder at the decision at which Mayo. We have one division in Tyrone, the Government have arrived. But at eight in Cavan, and the remainder in Fermanagh, the same time one cannot ignore the and I know that none of the divisions in Tyrone or fact that there is intense local feeling Cavan wish to be disconnected from upon the subject. In some cases the the divisions in Fermanagh. On that proposals of the Local Government Board ground I protest against the right might involve not only changing a divihonourable Gentleman leaving the matter sion from one county to another, but entirely to the decision of the Local from one province to another. Government Board. Only yesterday that a Sligo union might be brought evening I wrote a letter to the Secretary into Donegal. It is not only that there I see announce were to an might be considerable feeling, both racial | new men, neither can we ignore the fact and local, but there are financial ques- that it is not to be strengthened, so far tions of importance involved. The as we know, in any way from outside. Amendment of the honourable Gentle- Now, I think it would be a reasonable man the Member for Mayo would not, I thing if the Government that think, in any way restrict the powers some gentleman conof the Local Government Board. But, nected with this House I do not care while I think the Government will do what Party he might belong to-should to something in these well to accept this Amendment, I should have say There are of not at all find fault, from the point of matters. questions view of the central authorities, if some considerable nicety to be dealt with, and such proposal as that in the Bill were I do think that the Local Government carried. The present system is most in- Board might be assisted, as assessors, by convenient, and it is most desirable that some Members, drawn from all Parties, in some approximation towards the system this House, to do the work in suggested in the Bill should be brought honorary capacity, the paid men doing about. But really, Sir, I think the oppo- the drudgery, leaving to what I may call sition which this scheme has undoubtedly the honorary members outside questions aroused has been generated because of of principle where local feeling arose, and the natural distrust of the localities of of which there might thus be brought the body which is to do this work. In about considerable abatement. The regard to England, observe the anxiety Government, I think, on the whole would and care which the Government have lose nothing by accepting this Amendshown. Before the Act of 1888 was ment. They could, in spite of its brought forward. they passed an Act in acceptance, if they thought fit, carry out 1887, appointing a Royal Commission, departmentally what they wish now consisting of a number of people of great to carry out legislatively. There is dignity and importance, to consider these undoubtedly a strong feeling about the boundary questions. Then, again, when Bill, and the Government would do well, the Bill of 1888 was passed, another Com-in view of local prejudices, to consider mission, composed of men of considerable whether they could not meet them by weight and experience, was appointed, in appointing some persons in an honorary order to deal with questions of adjust-capacity to assist the Local Government ment, whereas these matters had to be Board. left under the control of the Local Government Board, two out of the three SIR T. ESMONDE: I think the Govern members of which body are at the presentment will act wisely in accepting this moment absolutely new to its work. I In different localities do not wish to say anything more about Amendment. that, and nobody will think I am hinting strong feeling is likely to arise about at any job, but I must express profound the alteration of boundaries. There may regret as to the disappearance of Sir be some unions in which certain divisions George Morris from the Local Govern- would be satisfied to join other unions, on He was a man of great but, ment Board. the other hand, there are common sense, and he understood the divisions which would view such a change My honourable prejudices of the people, as it is neces- with dissatisfaction. He did not Friend the Member for Mayo proposes to sary to do in these cases. pretend to govern the country without leave the matter more open, and I think understanding the prejudices of the the Government might, without great people. I do not know the gentleman risk, agree to his proposal. who took his place, but I can speak with approval of the new appointment made by the right honourable Gentleman, say that I am not able to accept the which I believe will be received with Amendment. I think that in two or three satisfaction. Therefore we do not complain of the composition of the Local cases, probably not more, it might be more convenient to adopt a threefold Government Board, as it is now stituted, but we cannot ignore the fact rather than a twofold arrangement. I that two out of the three members are must confess that I think simplification con MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I do not of areas is a very important object, but | say, I will further consider the matter it might be carried to an extent that would before the Report, in order to make up prevent what might be very valuable my mind definitely as to the cases in arrangements. I would rather the honourable Member would not press his Amendment. I can assure him I am prepared to consider the matter, but, at the same time, it might be awkward to take out of the Bill the power of the Local Government Board to divide unions between two instead of three counties. *MR. DILLON: My point is that if the Bill remains as it now stands, unions could not in any case be divided between more than two counties, and the right honourable Gentleman admits that, for reasons present to his own mind, in two or three cases, at any rate, it would be found more convenient to make the division between three counties. All I ask him to do is to leave himself free to make the change if he should think it best to do so. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Without wishing to contest what the honour able Member has said, I do not think he understands my point, which is that if I simply accepted the Amendment there would be nothing but divisions between three counties under the provision of the Bill. I would, therefore, rather leave some direction, at all events, in the Bill to indicate what should be done. The honourable Member says, leave the Local Government Board free to make what arrangements they think best, but in the absence of any directions great pressure may brought to bear upon them to make arrangements which it would not be wise to make, and it is desirable that their hands should be strengthened to resist pressure to multiply divisions. be MR. T. M. HEALY: Are not you the Local Governnent Board? You do not want your hands strengthened. which such a division would be desirable, and if I think it really is desirable in certain cases, I will accept this Amendment, or some similar Amendment, to make a threefold division possible. *MR. DILLON: I will be content with that, but I hope the right honourable Gentleman will place something on the Paper expressing his views. I now understand his object, but I think it will be universally admitted that the statement he has made shows that in some cases it would be undesirable to put a cast-iron limitation on the action of the Board. I will not press my Amendment now, but will put upon the Paper some proposal I expect the right honourable Gentleman before the Report stage, to show whether he will carry out my proposal. I should like to say a word or two, before I withdraw the Amendment, on the general question of boundaries, because some of us who sit on these Benches are in a position of difficulty in the matter. I myself have been troubled because of the proposal made to two divisions in my constituency, with, as it were, a pistol placed at their heads. They are put in the dilemma of either joining the Swineford Union, or leaving the county of Mayo and joining Roscommon. They do not want to do that. They belong to county Mayo in the Parliamentary sense, and they belong to Roscommon in the county council sense. Well, now, there may be, from the point of view of the right honourable Gentleman, no justifica tion for the prejudices of these local people, but there is something more than prejudice in the matter. These two divisions are up in arms against the change, and there is something more than a sentimental objection to it. They have a serious objection to sending their representatives into a strange council, where they are likely to form a small and despised faction, whose voice would not be likely to be listened to. That MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The presence of this or some similar provision in the Bill against multiplying divimay appear to some honourable Gentle sions would be useful in strengthening men a rather too far-fetched objection, their hands should pressure be brought but I can assure them that to those who to bear. However, if the honourable go much about amongst the people and Gentleman will be satisfied with what I understand the condition of county Mr. Gerald Balfour. |