will

society, it is by no means a fanciful present form, especially in the union of objection, for such a compulsory change which Kilkenny, Tipperary, and Watermight be very cruel. Therefore, what I ford form part. The Local Government want to impress upon the right honour- Board have addressed a letter to the able Gentleman is this: I should like him board of guardians, stating that inasmuch as this before the Bill passes to give us some Bill provides provides that indication of what precautions are to be no union shall be divided between than two counties, it taken to ascertain the wishes of the more people in a division before forcing it to be necessary to transfer certain porremove to another county or union, and tions of the union, but this is provided a manner as to involve what weight is to be given to the unani- for in such mous feeling of the body of the rate intersection of boundaries, and more than payers. Although I fully sympathise intersection, with the result that when with the object of the right honourable jurors are summoned to assizes or to Gentleman as to simplification, still I sessions they will, in certain cases, have think you will meet with great difficulties and create great discontent unless you move slowly and cautiously in the

matter.

to travel distances of from 20 to 30 Irish miles, to the great prejudice of legal proceedings. The board of guardians of the Carrick-on-Suir Union have unanimously passed a resolution, which has been sent to the Local Government Board, asking the latter body not to pass the scheme in that form, which, however, will be absolutely necessary if this clause is carried as it stands.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I fear that

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Perhaps I may be allowed to state that this question of boundaries has been anxiously considered by the Government, and in every case we have tried to ascertain what was the local feeling. As to the suggestion of the honourable and learned Member for North Louth, that it might in a matter of this sort there is scarcely be possible, in the event of dissatisfac- a case in which difficulties cannot be made tion with a decision, to give an appeal to apparent with the assistance of the map, the Local Government Board with the but I do recognise that there are special assistance of assessors, I do not wish to cases to which it is necessary to give offer any opinion now, but I shall certainly consider all the suggestions that consideration, and I hope honourable

have been made.

A meeting was held a fortnight ago, at which resolutions were adopted protesting against alteration in this direction. The decision on a former occasion was, unfortunately, come to rather hastily, and the people of the district had no opportunity of expressing an opinion at the time, but they have that opportunity now.

Gentlemen will be satisfied with the assurance that such consideration shall be given.

*MR. JORDAN: Will the right honourable Gentleman permit me to make a suggestion? Before the Local Government Board arrive at a decision, will it not be better to hold an inquiry on the spot, where the parties interested may be heard? That, I think, may save a good deal of trouble hereafter.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I see no objection to that, in doubtful cases.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. DALY (Monaghan, S.): I move an Amendment that a union shall extend MR. CREAN: In my opinion, Mr. over one county. I think this would Lowther, strange results will follow if save a good deal of amalgamation, which this clause is retained in the Bill in its would otherwise take place.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: We have for the last half-hour been discussing Amendments on this point, and I am forced to admit there seems to be sufficient doubt

about the matter to make me look into it.

MR. DALY: I do not wish to press this to a division, but in the county I represent there is a good deal of soreness about this business, and I have been inundated with petitions on the subject from county Monaghan.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed-

"Page 25, line 29, after counties,' insert 'or two counties and one county borough.'' (Mr. Vesey Knox.)

a

MR. VESEY KNOX: I am not going to press this to a division, but it would be an inconceivable hardship if the proposal 1 apprehend were carried into effect, and

I cannot think such a course is contemplated as that either the Derry or the Donegal part of the union shall be amalgamated with any other union. I hope the Chief Secretary will be able to give a clearer answer on this question, because this is a far different case from those which have been spoken of, of a union forming more than two rural counties. If I withdraw the Amendment I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give an assurance that the case will be dealt with.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: My strong impression is that the case of this union was not considered by us when we used this form of words. I press the right honourable Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment, in order that we may consider the whole case.

MR. VESEY KNOX: I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. VESEY KNOX: There is particular case I would like to call attention to that of the union of Derry, which will form part of two counties and one county borough. It is of a convenient size, and the city of Derry will be in the centre. As the Bill stands, it will be necessary to take either the Derry MR. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal): I beg part of the union or the Donegal to point out the word " area appears part and throw it into another union. I quite admit that where parts of unions to be hardly sufficient in this clause. are not sufficiently large in themselves, There are places in which the proporthere is a strong case for amalgamation tions of unions vary considerably in point and alteration of boundaries, but in this of size, and are of but little consequence, case the part of the union of the and I beg to move an Amendment to county of Derry is, I submit, large insert after the word "size," the words enough, and so is the part of the county "and rateable value." of Donegal, and I can see no obstacle to MR. VESEY KNOX: I think that, these parts forming rural district councils. I have no information as to what as far as valuation goes, the Local it is proposed to do in this particular Government Board might be of opinion case, for it rather seems to have been that they would be able to form separate overlooked; but it certainly seems to districts, and I do not think it is desirme that a county borough is for these able to purposes somewhat different from an ordinary county, and I venture to press this matter on the attention of the Chief Secretary.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I fear that if I were to adopt the suggestion of the honourable Member for East Mayo, or to make one of my own, it would not meet the proposal of this Amendment.

hinder the Local Government Board. My put in a word which might view is that the poorer a place is the harder it is for the people to send their district councillors to distant places. In the union I have in my mind, in West Cavan, the people are very poor-in fact, it ought to be scheduled as a congested district and to send them to a distant place to transact their local business, would be a very great hardship.

It

Amendment proposed

must be remembered that in Ireland there will be no parish councils; the district councils will be the authorities for all local purposes, including the vil lage pump. I, therefore, think the Amendment might well be held over.

"Page 26, line 5, add as a new sub-section"If the Local Government Board amalgamate two unions they may, after communication with the county council and rural district councils concerned, either amalgamate the rural districts in the same county which are comprised in the amalgamated unions, or direct that those districts shall continue as separate rural districts, and in either case may for protecting the interests of the officers of make such arrangements as may be necessary

MR. CREAN: There is nothing in the clause which prescribes in any way any rules which the Local Government Board will follow. I think some regulation should be made as to where rural dis-the district councils holding office at the time trict councils shall or shall not be set up, and I think also the English precedent might well be followed.

MR. A. O'CONNOR: I have heard my honourable and learned Friend the Member for Derry city, and, while holding my own opinion, I ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am rather sorry the honourable Gentleman has withdrawn his Amendment, because I think some other points should be considered besides size.

of the amalgamation, and for that purpose the Union Officers (Ireland) Act, 1885, shall apply

to officers of the district councils in like manner as it applies to the officers of boards of guardians."-(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 44 as amended added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 45.

Amendment proposed

(Mr. M. Healy.)
"Page 26, line 10, leave out coroner.

MR. M. HEALY: This clause is a supplement to clause 27, section 3, which preserves the right

On the return of the CHAIRMAN, after council of a borough to the usual interval,

Amendment proposed

of the appoint If this

its coroner as heretofore.
clause stands, it would appear as if the
urban district came under the jurisdic-

"Page 26, line 1, leave out sub-section 5."- tion of the county council even when the (Mr. M. Healy.)

urban district comprises a borough. I do not know whether I have made myself quite clear.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.): It was never the intention of the clause to deprive any borough, absorbed in an administrative county, of its existing right to appoint a coroner.

MR. M. HEALY: But, I think, there would be a danger as the clause stands. However, I withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment withdrawn.
Amendments proposed-

"Page 26, line 11, leave out 'a sheriff and,'
"Page 26, line 13, after 'county' insert-

666

'And a sheriff may be appointed by the Corporation of Belfast and Londonderry, as if these cities were named in the fourth section of the Municipal Privileges (Ireland) Act, and in the manner as in said Act provided.' "—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)

MR. T. M. HEALY: The question | merged boroughs, to go to the mayor. which I have raised is one, I think, would suggest to him that the proper of considerable importance, and I do thing would be to give the borough of Galway some provision of this kind. I thank the Government for having accepted the Amendment.

ney General a question. The right MR. M. HEALY: I am quite satishonourable Gentleman said, on a former fied, but I do think it would be a occasion, that he would still allow the shabby thing if the Government were to direction of the writ, in the case of restrict the powers of those magistrates

just because they chose to destroy the their present court-house, and certainly area over which they acted, and to create it will be quite sufficient for the purposes a sort of hybrid magistracy, the like of of the city and county. which has never existed before in the judicial history of the country. I repeat that it would be very shabby.

*MR. ATKINSON: As I understand, the honourable Member wishes that the justices of the peace out of those areas which are destroyed shall be appointed justices for the whole county?

MR. M. HEALY: Hear, hear!

MR. SHEEHY (Galway, S.): Inasmuch as the section only affects two localities and a few gentlemen, I think the right honourable Gentleman might well make this small concession, unless there should be some concealed objection to these gentlemen being on the commission of the peace.

*MR. JORDAN: I think this is a concession which the Government might reasonably make.

MR. M. HEALY: Subject to my right to raise the question again, I withdraw the Amendment now.

Amendment withdrawn.

Amendment proposed

"Page 26, line 19, after Act' insert

(b) The court-houses and other county buildings hitherto used for the purposes of the county Antrim and the city of Belfast, and for the purposes of the county and city of Londonderry, shall continue to be so used, subject to the prescribed conditions."-(Mr. Vesey Knox.)

MR. T. M. HEALY: Is it intended to hold assizes in Limavady, which, I believe, is the right honourable Gentleman's stronghold, or can he suggest where the duties of the county are the Government, in making this novel to be performed? It seems to me that proposal, have, for all assize purposes, separated the city of Derry absolutely from the county. There is no power to hold a court in another county. If a prisoner is to be tried, he is tried in the county of Derry, unless the right honourable Gentleman resorts to the Crimes Act. The city of Derry is as widely removed from the county of Derry as if it were the city of London.

*MR. ATKINSON: There is scarcely a city in Ireland

MR. M. HEALY: What about Cork? *MR. ATKINSON: Where the prisoners of an adjoining county are not tried in the county situated next to it. The county of Derry is separated for county purposes from the county of the city, but prisoners in the county will still be tried in the courthouse, which, for assize purposes, will be considered as in the county of Derry, just as they are tried in the county of the city of Limerick, Cork, Kilkenny, and Waterford.

MR. M. HEALY: The right honourable Gentleman has referred to the city of MR. VESEY KNOX: This Amend- Cork, and he has said that prisoners from ment is one which I think can be the county of Cork are tried in the city of readily accepted. The object of the Cork because there is an expressed enactAmendment that I wish to move is ment for that, and when the court-house to secure that there shall not be any was burned down ten years ago and a necessity to build a new court-house temporary court had to be held elsewhere, either for county Antrim or for London- a special enactment had to be brought derry. At present there is a court-house forward. I do think that without some at Belfast, and there is another at Lon- expressed enactment the city of Derry donderry, each of which is amply suffi- court-house will be deemed to be in the cient for judicial purposes, and I venture county of Derry, and there might be some to say that nobody wants to see a new awkward inquiries made by the judges. court-house built there. There is no What I rise to say is this: that the Order necessity at Belfast for erecting another in Council does not explicitly deal with court, and in Derry they are improving this question. It is a general clause,