them. Therefore, I should like an ex- | is the only case, and that is so because planation of this very wide departure he has to discharge certain legal duties from the English Act. I think that this in connection with his office, and that provision is objectionable in a two-fold is the only reason why, under the Engsense. It is objectionable in the first lish Act, he is not appointed by the place, to take away from an important county council. But these powers which representative body the power to ensure are conferred upon the Irish Local its servants against the injustice of Government Board are not conferred wrongful dismissal. We know perfectly upon the English Local Government well that there are a great many public Board under the Act. But I will go furbodies in Ireland who are not permitted ther and say that, even if they were conto dismiss their own officials, and the ferred on the English Local Government result is that their officials are not very Board, it is a much more injurious thing, civil, and they are by no means very and far more likely to cripple, and amenable to the direction of those in annoy, and embarrass these Irish local whose employment they are. Something bodies to confer such powers upon the may be said in favour of that system- Irish Local Government Board than though I myself am not in favour of it would be the case with the English Local when we are dealing with the case of very Government Board, because in England small and comparatively unimportant such power would only be used in the case appointments; but when we come to of some very scandalous appointment. deal with very large appointments, then I refuse to accept from the right honourI think it is monstrous that these offi- able Gentleman the Chief Secretary cials, particularly the officials into whose for Ireland the statement that, in his hands the whole of the administration judgment, the Irish Local Government will fall, should be placed in such a posi- Board will not use that power. tion that they may set their employers at absolute defiance and be backed up by the Local Government Board in that particular. I confess, however, that I attach much more importance to the question of appointment. The Chief Secretary said that this was really to a large extent a purely formal pro

MR. T. M. HEALY: The first part of the section says

"As respects the officers of the county council, the council of a county other than a county borough, subject to the provisions hereinafter contained."

"The provisions of this Act with respect to administrative counties shall, so far as circumstances admit, apply in the case of every such borough, with the necessary modifications."

This does not apply to county boroughs, vision, and that he knew that it would be used only to prevent improper but it would be open to say that section appointments being made. Well now, 4 does, especially when you have regard Sir, that is a very extraordinary attitude to the powers conferred under section 17, to take, because it amounts to this: that where it says, at line 19— the Local Government Board at Dublin should have control, and should be able to say what is a proper appointment and what is an improper appointment. There is nothing laid down in the Orders in Council for their guidance, and there is no regulation preventing them using that power arbitrarily. I should like to know why the Government, having undertaken to give to Ireland the same privileges as are enjoyed by this country under the English Act, have departed from it in so important a particular as the appointment of officers. I know that in England the county clerk is appointed by the council, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, but that Mr. Dillon.

The exceptions are only about main roads, etc. It appears to me that this is a section that should be allowed to exist only for a limited period. It may be that, at the opening stage of these county councils, some such provision may be necessary; but I think five years will give the Government all the protection they desire.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: This clause does not apply to county boroughs. If

the honourable Member will look at sub- this clause to go through unchallenged, section 1 he will see that it reads

"As respects the officers of the county council, the council of a county other than a county borough."

County boroughs are expressly excluded.

MR. M. HEALY: Look at subsection 6.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am quite willing to make it clear that the subsection does not apply to county boroughs. In the case of the county surveyor it is desirable that there should be some check. One consideration, the importance of which it is impossible to exaggerate, is the desirability of having as good men as possible to discharge these duties, and you will get a very much better class of men if you have the support of the Local Government Board than without that provision. Considering how much, after this Bill passes, will be contributed from the Imperial Exchequer to the local authorities in Ireland, it is not unreasonable that some check should be imposed.

because the time will come when the Government will be obliged to withdraw the greater part of these restrictions.

MR. M. HEALY: May we take it that this sub-section relates only to secretaries and county surveyors? Because I am not quite sure that there is not a snake in the grass in the earlier subsection.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON (North Armagh): I hope the Government will remain firm and keep this clause as it stands. I would rather see the county officers creatures of the Local Government Board than creatures of the National League.

MR. DILLON: Do I understand that no member of the National League is to be appointed?

COLONEL SAUNDERSON: Certainly not. I do not wish to see politics introduced at all; but I fear that at first, at any rate, that will happen, and that in consequence the worst possible selection of officers will be made. From what I know of certain parts of Ireland I think it is likely that membership of the National League will be a strong inducement to appointment to these offices. I have had representatives from all parts of Ireland hoping that the officers of the county council will not be absolutely at the beck and call of the League.

MR. DILLON: The county council appoints the men whom you approve. That is the whole point; and any man who makes himself obnoxious to the Government will have a cross put against his name. We have had from the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secre- MR. MURNAGHAN: I desire to extary for Ireland a perfect disclosure of press the hope that the Government the whole policy of the Government. We will agree to the reasonable repreknow now that the Local Government sentations of the Irish Members on Board and the Castle authorities regard those men as to a large extent their ser- this question, because I feel that, in vants; and the men who expect to obtain placing these irritating restrictions upon these local appointments in Ireland will these bodies, they are doing the very feel it necessary to abstain from giving thing that will militate against the the authorities umbrage. If the right smooth working of local government in honourable Gentleman the Chief Secre- Ireland. I do not see why the people tary were justified in his argument he of Ireland cannot be trusted to manage ought to go further, and take away from their own affairs. They have more inall the municipal corporations of Ireland terest in their own affairs than any the right to appoint their officers. I outsider can have. Speaking from my have no desire to prolong unduly this own experience, I say that we should discussion, but I hope the honourable not, in the early stages of local governMember who moved this Amendment ment, be hampered with these irritating will carry it to a Division, in order that restrictions. Why should not the local it may not be used as an argument bodies in Ireland appoint their own against us in the future that we allowed officials? It is annoying to think that

these local bodies are there merely to|ment; and now the Government propose carry out the will of the Local Govern- to put this veto upon the appointment ment Board in Dublin.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I do not think that any instance can be pointed out in which the Local Government Board refused their sanction to the appointment of an official, except on thoroughly reasonable grounds. The honourable Member for East Mayo says that the Local Government Board of Ireland is not

of the county council officers, and the people who look for appointments under the county council will be on their good behaviour so that their names may not become obnoxious to the authorities. The honourable and gallant Member for North Armagh had said that he objected to any of these officers being members of the National League; in his words he would say that all these officers should be loyal

men.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON: They ought to be honest men.

MR. DILLON: Does the honourable

and gallant Member go so far as to hold that no man is honest in Ireland except

amenable to the criticism of Parliament exactly in the same way as the English Local Government Board. But I venture to say that under no circumstances would the Local Government Board give their sanction to the appointment or the dismissal of an officer without consulting the Chief Secretary. The thing is absolutely out of the question. And there he agrees with him in politics? If that is certainly no ground for the supposi- is his view his test of an honest man is tion that the Local Government Board a man who supports the Unionist Governwill use their power merely in order to secure appointments for their political

friends.

MR. DILLON: Have the Irish Members ever succeeded in reversing the action of the Irish Local Government Board by bringing a question before the House? The English Local Government Board do not do these things, because they have to defend their action before the House.

ment. That is the root-evil of this system. Whether the Local Government Board exercise this power constantly or not, it is there, and is held in reserve, and is a weapon of corruption. The Government have not attempted to justify it, and I trust that the honourable Member who moved the Amendment will divide the House upon it as a protest.

*SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derby, Ilkeston) appealed to the right honourable MR. GERALD BALFOUR: So it is Gentleman, having regard to the fact that here. it was in the interests of everybody that the Act should work smoothly, to make concession to the honourable somə Members. The Government had limited officers. He thought if they retained the the area of choice in the appointment of power that no officer should be dismissed by the county council without the sanction of the Local Government Board they would have quite sufficient authority over the county councils, and at the same time would give to each county council a wider area out of which to select the officer. They would by this course give the man who had any political black mark against his name, or anything that might be used with regard to his public conduct in Ireland, the same chance as other men in securing such appointments, and at the same time retain the power of having a voice in the

MR. DILLON: What would be the position if a reduction of the salary of the President of the English Local Government Board were carried by five votes to one of the English Members? Either the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board would disappear or the policy would be reversed. But the Irish Members may carry a reduction by five to one of the Irish votes, and it would make no more difference than water on a duck's back. We have only the satisfaction of compelling the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to sit on these benches and listen to the Irish Members; but, so far as business is concerned, it is not affected in the least. We have no remedy by officials of the GovernMr. Murnaghan.

{23 MAY 1898} dismissal or removal of an officer. He believed if the right honourable Gentle man would make that concession he would remove a cause of friction which was likely to arise under the proposed -condition of things.

SIR T. ESMONDE: The weak point of the grand jury system is that the grand juries have no control over their county surveyors and other

officials. As I understand the clause

this evil will now be aggravated. It prescribes that there shall be a considerable number of officials who will be supposed to do the work of the Irish county councils, and at the same time be absolutely beyond their control. This is a most undesirable state of things. As far as I can see, this clause carries out the principle which pervades the whole of the Bill. It puts the county councils in Ireland absolutely at the mercy of the

Local Government Board. I think that is a very great mistake. I am perfectly certain that the Irish county councils will be at war with the Local Government Board, and that will not be conducive to harmonious working. The Chief Secretary ought to have more confidence in the local bodies he is creating, and allow them a little more independence; otherwise I for one, in common with other honourable Members who sit on these benches, may feel disposed reconsider my position with regard to the Bill altogether. Instead of giving local government to the Irish people the Chief Secretary is simply putting them under that of the Local Government Board.

to

MR. CREAN (Queen's County, Ossory): I think the Irish county councils ought to be fully trusted with regard to the appointment of their officials. I will give one instance to prove that local bodies in Ireland have not misused that trust in the past. On a recent occasion the Corporation of Cork, of which I was for many years a member, and which is composed of two-thirds Nationalists, appointed a city surveyor. Would it surprise this House, to know that they appointed an Englishman and a Protestant to that position? Again, would it surprise this House to

know that the harbour board nominated by the corporation appointed a Protestant and an Englishman as their chief engineer? And yet the honourable and gallant Member opposite, impregnated with the bigotry of Ulster, ventured to insinuate that politics would interfere with the appointment of officials. But grand juries, on the other hand, never make appointments outside their own clique and religion.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I can give the honourable Gentleman many instances in my own county where Catholics have been appointed cess collectors. MR. T. M. HEALY: Grand juries never appoint a Catholic to any office.

MR. CREAN: I therefore think, Mr. Lowther, that Nationalist Members have reason to doubt the bonâ fides of any branch of Dublin Castle dealing fairly with anyone not of their own political thinking.

MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton): There was one statement made by an honourable Member that should not go unchallenged, and that is the statement that in England the system of the Local Government Board having control over the appointment of the officials of local bodies has worked well. Now, Sir, I venture to say that there is not a board of guardians in this country which would not prefer to have absolute control over its own officials. There is a great difference between the appointment of officials under this system compared with that of the municipal authorities in this country, because the municipal authorities have absolute control over the whole of their officials, unless they apply to receive half the salaries of the medical officer of health or the surveyor from the county council. understand from the latter part of this section, which speaks of the agricultural grant-the agricultural grant is, I believe, £40,000 for the whole of Ireland-that this grant was transferred to the local taxation account, and then handed over to the county councils. Now, in England, I think in many county councils the whole of the officials are paid out of the

I

AYES.

Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Coghill, Douglas Harry Cohen, Benjamin Louis Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Cruddas, Wm. Donaldson Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Denny, Colonel

Douglas, Kt. Hon. A. AkersDrucker, A.

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart
Fardell, Sir T. George

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Fisher, William Hayes
Flannery, Fortescue
Flower, Ernest

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Galloway, William Johnson
Garfit, William

Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H. (C. of Lond.)
Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)