existing superannuation law. I do not do with the carrying through of the go into the question of whether the rea- Superannuation Bill of 1890 I should like sons adduced in favour of this proposal to see it further extended, and I trust the by the honourable Member who has right honourable Gentleman the Chief moved this Amendment are good or bad, Secretary will be inclined to give a but I refuse to accept it on the grounds favourable hearing to this Amendment. I have mentioned.

MR. DALY: I am pleased to gather from the statement of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland that he is not going to because I think the right honourable grant superannuation in these cases, Gentleman will have the support of the majority of Members from Ireland in the attitude he has taken up. One of the arguments used by the honourable Member for North Dublin was that a Super annuation Bill had been introduced in the House of Lords, but that is an argument I should scarcely have expected the honourable Member to use. I hope, Sir, the right honourable Gentle man will consider the matter carefully before he imposes this additional burden the entire grant will be absorbed if we the ratepayers of Ireland. are called upon to give superannuation allowances to all the officers. As far as I am concerned I am opposed to the Amendment, and I am surprised at any honourable Member representing an agricultural constituency bringing it forward.

upon

In fact,

MR. W. REDMOND (Clare, E.): I do not think it can be denied that the attendants in these asylums perform very arduous and very responsible duties, and that they are not as well treated as they should be. I do not know what the general feeling on this subject may be, but I know that in my district there is a very strong feeling that the men in these asylums are not fairly treated. I think, therefore, that if the right hon- tion of these attendants ourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary asylums is not prepared to accept the Amendment attention. I know, as a matter of fact, a of the honourable Member for Dublin county, he might give some expression of -opinion upon the subject. This is a question which creates a good deal of interest in different parts of Ireland, and I believe that the Irish people generally would be much pleased if some improvement were made in the position of these men.

MR. W. JOHNSTON: I should not have trespassed upon the time of

MR. W. FIELD: I regard the posiat lunatic one which demands

as

case in which attendants have been obliged to form a trades union to protect themselves; and I say, as one who is acquainted with the labour question, it is a scandal-and nothing short of it-that men should be obliged to work from 12 to 15 hours a day amongst lunatics. It is not many months since I received a deputation from a staff of attendants, and I venture to assert that their hours ought to be decreased, and their remuneration increased.

MR. TULLY: I

am prepared to

the House if it had not been for the remarks of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I should like the right honourable admit that the duties of attendants Gentleman to understand that there is are arduous, and their hours too long; a considerable feeling amongst Irish but I think we ought to consider, Members in favour of providing super- not the poor officials only, but the poor annuation allowances for these asylum ratepayers. The farmer, the shopkeeper, attendants. Having had something to and the professional man, in a great.

many cases, work harder than some of to the present time. If they have had the officials, though no pensions are very small salaries, why not give them provided by Act of Parliament for them. better salaries in the future? It would It is one of the scandals of Ireland that appear, however, that there is a conwe have too many pensioners. Take the siderable number of candidates comcase of the Royal Irish Constabulary. peting for appointments at any time a The force consists of only 10,000 men, vacancy occurs. I have no feeling and there are 6,000 pensioners. If these against this class of public servants more proposals for superannuation are accepted than I have against other classes, but if by the Government, the scandal which has taken place in the case of the police the case of one class, there will be no you let in the thin end of the wedge in will be repeated in the case of the end to the claims for similar asylums, the workhouses, and other insticlasses. So tutions, and I for one therefore resist allowances from other the Amendment. far as I am concerned, therefore, I shall certainly vote against the Amend

ment.

The

may be said. I must say that it augurs an extraordinary state of mind when we are told that we ought not to take into account special circumstances when they arise, simply because there is a fear of the thin end of the wedge. I think the case of the asylum attendants is a piti

MR. CREAN: I think something should be done in regard to those cases in which attendants have seen excellent service MR. CLANCY: I intend to go to a in an institution and have broken down Diviston on the question. I will not in consequence of the work. Unless a make any reply to the speeches of the person is brought into direct contact honourable Members on this side of the with these people he is really incapable House further than to say that I think of judging the merits of a particular any fear that the House may entertain case. They are frequently on duty for as to extravagance resulting from this 16, 17, and even 24 hours at a stretch, Bill in Ireland may be banished. My and therefore, so far as the Amendment opinion is that this Bill will be found deals with 15 years' service, I am pre- to work in an economical manner. pared to support it. But there is one por-case of the asylum attendants is one in tion of it which I cannot support, and it favour of which something exceptional' is that portion which gives superannuation to a person breaking down, say, after a couple of years' service in the same way as it would be given to a person after serving 20 years. If an Amendment is introduced limiting the length of time to 10 years, I would certainly be in favour of it. Often, after 12 months' service, an attendant is incaable case. pable of continuing in the service, and the Amendment would therefore put us humanity, in the interests of the public in a rather awkward position, because service, and in the interests of common in a very short time we should have a justice, this Amendment ought to be large number of pensioners. In many accepted. But if the honourable Member instances the terms of service are very for Queen's County (Mr. Crean) thinks short. In one asylum more than half the attendants have not had more than five years' experience. In the course of two or three years many of them go away. It would, therefore, be impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment as it is now on the Paper. MR. JORDAN: So far as I am concerned, I cannot see why these officers should be put in a better position

In the interests of common

the Amendment goes too far, and has any intention of proposing an Amendment which will meet with the satisfaction of those officers, he will not find me in opposition to him.

Question put

"That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:-Ayes 35;

under this Bill than they have been up Noes 234.-(Division List No. 117.)

Mr. Tully.

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Seely, Charles Hilton
Seton-Karr, Henry
Sharpe, William Edward T.
Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renf.)
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.)
Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Smith, J. Parker (Lanarksh.)
Soames, Arthur_Wellesley
Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Stevenson, Francis S.
Stone, Sir Benjamin
Strauss, Arthur

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Talbot,Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUny)
Thornton, Percy M.
Tollemache, Henry James
Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Tritton, Charles Ernest
Tully, Jasper
Valentia, Viscount

be exercised in the way in which it would
be exercised according to the terms of
the section. The existing power which
the Local Government Board have over
medical officers is very wide. They can
hold inquiries into any complaint which
is made against them. They can punish
them in a variety of ways.
As far as I
have been able to ascertain, although,
of course, I may be wrong, there is no
analogy to this section in the English
Bill. The whole section seems to me to
be much too severe and much too dras-
tic, and certainly I would ask the right
honourable Gentleman the Chief Secre-
tary to accept my Amendment in so far
as it would exclude from the operation of
thin section men filling the highly re-
sponsible position of medical officers or
chaplains.

MR. TULLY: I think the Chief Secretary might reasonably exclude chaplairs from the order; otherwise I think it is one of the most useful clauses of the whole Bill. It is the only one which gives any protection to the boards and enables them to secure the performance of their respective duties by their officials. know several cases where boards have been terribly hampered because the offcials have refused to obey the reasonable orders of the boards. I hope the Chief Secretary will adhere to the clause.

I

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL: This Amendment proposes to omit from the operation of this very drastic section the medical officer and the chaplain. Apparently the burden and scope of this *MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL: I have an section, which seems to be unnecessarily Amendment to the same effect as the strong, and certainly could be used as an honourable and learned Member, and I instrument for pressure and hardship cannot help thinking that this sub-section against particular officers, is to place any was not in the clause originally, because if officer, whether the county surveyor, you look at the section it does not seem the medical officer, or the chaplain, who has omitted to perform any of chaplain or of medical officer. I quite at all to be apposite to the duties either duty to make any return, or to give any information, or to do anything what- agree with the last speaker that it is. soever that he is asked to do, in pur- quite right that, generally speaking, the suance of the Act, or in pursuance of the officers of the county councils or of the orders of the council-at the mercy of district councils should be properly subanyone who chooses to go to the petty jected to the drastic penalties of this sessions to take a summons out against section, but if an officer is required to him, and to recover a penalty of 40s. I perform any duty, make any return, think that is a very great indignity to give any information, or do any other put upon a professional man like thing, it appears to me to be the medical very insultofficer, or the chaping to apply that to a chaplain or to a lain of a workhouse. I would sug- medical officer. I know as a matter of gest to the Government that they fact. that the medical profession in Irecould hardly have intended that this land, represented by the Irish Medical power should be entrusted to anyone to Association, have been very much