where they liked in a county, he thought | At the same time I am inclined to think that was a bad principle. These words that the common law would operate if a would place popularly elected magis- man chanced to misconduct himself by trates in an inferior position to the other magistrates, whereas they ought to have the right to sit anywhere in a county.

was

*MR. W. JOHNSTON said his eldest son a magistrate, and when appointed by the present Government it was distinctly intimated to him that he should only act in a certain petty sessional division.

MR. FLYNN said he could not understand why magistrates who were popularly elected should be restricted. They had the confidence of their fellow citizens, and ought to have the right to sit in any petty sessional division.

going out of his own division, and thus car-
ried on abuses which have properly been
put down. Would it not, therefore, be
better, instead of confining a man in this
way by Statute, to leave the Lord Chan-
cellor's jurisdiction as it is at present, and
not to give an opportunity for the diffi-

culties which would arise if the clause
were allowed to stand as it is drawn? I
hope that the right honourable Gentle-
man will also apply his mind to the case
Take, for instance, the
of boroughs.
borough of Wexford. The mayoralty of
Wexford has been in existence for hun-
dreds of years, and the Mayor is entitled
within the borough to precedence even
over the Recorder; and surely it is unfair
to do anything which would make the
holder of such an office inferior in point
of dignity to chairmen of local boards!

MR. DILLON: My chief objection

to apply to all the magistrates, and that you should not set up in a county privileged magistrates who could go to a district other than their own, and others who are confined within certain limits; and a thing to which I strongly object-though I do not intend to divide

MR. ATKINSON: I do not think the mover of the Amendment quite realises the gross abuses which used to arise when it was the custom for magistrates to sit outside their own petty sessional divi- to this new system is that it ought sions, perhaps for some private or personal advantage. So great had the evil grown that during recent years it has been customary for the Lord Chancellor, when a man is appointed to the Bench, to inform him that he is expected to confine himself to his own petty sessional district; and afterwards, if the magistrate does go beyond his own petty sessional district, one of the matters he is asked to explain is what induced him to do so. But the ex-officio justices which this Bill creates would be entirely independent of the Lord Chancellor in this respect, and the object of this clause is to put such ex-officio justices as far as possible in the same position as ordinary magistrates, and to make each one confine himself as far as possible to his own petty sessional district. In other respects there would be no difference, but in this particular respect the ex-officio magis trate would, but for this clause, have far wider powers than the magistrate ap-ing on a magistrate who had acted outpointed by the Lord Chancellor.

MR. T. M. HEALY: I think the effect of the introduction of these words may be very curious in certain cases, though I am not saying that under the circumstances the provision of the Government is not an unreasonable one. Mr. Dillon.

the House on it-is this: that in the Bill creating these new popular magistrates there should be contained words which certainly seem to put upon them a certain stigma as of inferiority as compared with other magistrates already created. The Statute almost puts it, indeed, as if these newly-elected magistrates were likely to be men of dangerous character, who must be cribbed, cabined, and confined within their own districts. The honourable and learned Gentleman the Attorney

General said that undoubtedly, according to law, men appointed for the county have a right to act over any portion of it, and that such right was only modified by the action of the Lord Chancellor in call

side his own district to give his reasons for doing so, but that the whole custom and practice of the law was that a magistrate appointed to the county bench was really a magistrate for the whole county. As I have said, my strong objection to this clause is that it appears to place these popular magistrates in an inferior

class, as it were, to the ordinary county | put in the clause, and, as far as my

magistrates.

MR. ATKINSON: I would point out a matter which seems to have escaped the attention of certain honourable Gentlemen with regard to certain borough magistrates. Take the case of the Mayor of Sligo, for instance. The Mayor of Sligo, though he is a county magistrate, can only act as a magistrate in the borough of Sligo.

MR. M. HEALY: The right honourable Gentleman has referred to Sligo. That borough is only part of the petty sessional district, and accordingly, when the mayor sits on the bench he has to

consider whether a case has arisen within the borough or within that portion of the petty sessional district which lies outside the borough, and in the latter event he is not justified in acting. But what of the chairman of commissioners of Dundalk?

the

experience goes, the chairman of a district council would, under this clause, be in the same position as recently-made magistrates who proceed from the Lord Chancellor just in the same position. We have been restricted to certain petty sessional districts as a matter of agreement between the Lord Chancellor and those who were made magistrates. I suppose the present Lord Chancellor is carrying out the same arrangement as his predecessor, and therefore I say that these men will only be in the same position as are those who have recently been appointed by the Lord Chancellor. I urge the Government not to recede from their position.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed

"Line 8, after 'district' insert ' and

such chairman of an urban district shall be

styled and known as the 'mayor.'"Mr. T. M. Healy.)

SIR T. ESMONDE (Kerry, W.): I beg to move on behalf of my honourable and learned Friend.

title of mayor is a distinction. the value of which would undoubtedly be lessened if it were held by a large number of persons.

He would, under this Bill, be made a justice of the peace not only for the urban district of Dundalk, but for any district which comprises any part of the council area. Let me take, for instance, the case of Drogheda. That and Dundalk are two towns in the county. One is at a higher MR. GERALD BALFOUR: 1 do not status than the other by having a think this is an Amendment which and mayor but corporation, At present the right honourable Gentleman will now ought to be pressed. give the chairman of Commissioners of Dundalk a higher position magisterially than the Mayor of Drogheda has, because the Mayor of Drogheda is reserved to his existing jurisdiction, which will be limited to the township of Drogheda, whereas the chairman of commissioners, being chairman of the urban district council, will have jurisdiction not only in Dundalk, but in every part which is comprised within the urban district. Thus the right honourable Gentleman gives the chairman of commissioners full power to sit upon any case in a court where the mayor is some times a justice and sometimes not. strongly of opinion that there should be dcne for the mayor, in a case of this sort, what the Bill proposes to do for the chairman of town commissioners.

I am

MR. T. M. HEALY: This is a concession which would cost the Government nothing; and may I ask the Government to read the schedule in the Act of 1842, and note the enormous number of mayors who were then struck away? I think if they do they will be somewhat surprised. The right honourable Gentleman suggests that the proposal would, if carried, cheapen the distinction. In America, in every little town you go into, not only are there captains and colonels and generals, but there is a mayor in every one, and in England I should say that there are at least 150 towns whose chief officers bear the title. If this Amendment were agreed to it would.

be restoring to these towns an honour which in many cases they bore up to 1842. In other cases the chief officers were called portreeves, and titles of 2 A

ancient dignity of that class. I repeat that, as it would cost the Government nothing, I think they might well withdraw their objection to the Amendment. MR. JORDAN: I support this proposition. It would be some compensation for what the right honourable Gentleman has deprived the towns of in other parts of this Bill. We have really been deprived of things, just as the right honourable Gentleman himself is deprived by the Bill of certain rights and privileges.

MR. FLYNN: The distinction of being mayor of a great corporation and a man of some standing in the country would unquestionably lose its significance if

the towns which now have the honour were put into competition with these little boroughs. Even the Lord Mayors of Dublin and Cork would hardly be in such a distinguished position if the title of mayor was bestowed on chairmen of district councils.

Amendment negatived without Division.

Amendment proposed

"Line 10, after section,' insert

"And also the chairman of any town or township commissioners under the Lighting of Towns (Ireland) Act, 1828, or the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, or under any local Act." (Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I could not accept the Amendment so far as the Lighting of Towns Act is concerned.

NEW CLAUSE.

"Page 11, after clause 24, insert the following clause:

and four of the Public Health Act, 1878, upon "The power conferred by section one hundred an urban authority to purchase a market from a market company shall extend to authorise the purchase from any person of any franchise or right to hold a market or fair, whether the said section shall apply accordingly, with under Act, letters patent, or otherwise, and the necessary modifications."-(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

clause deals with very much the same MR. W. REDMOND (Clare, E.): This matters as are dealt with in a clause

put down later in the Bill by the honourable Member for Monaghan. As far as it goes, this clause is satisfactory, but in my opinion it should be made compulsory to a certain extent.

"To authorise the purchase from any person of any franchise or right to hold a market or fair"

is a very good provision, but I do not a think it will be at all operative unless compulsory powers are given to urban district councils to take over these tolls and custom rights. With regard to the town of Ennis, which I represent, the tolls from fairs and markets are vested in and collected by Lord Leconfield for his sole benefit; but he gives no contribution whatever towards the expenses neces sarily incurred in keeping the town in a sanitary condition, nor does he own any property in the town whatever; and it does seem in this age rather an extraordinary thing that under old letters he should enjoy such a right as this. patent, granted in the reign of James II., What I think the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary should do would be to give the district council's compulsory powers to purchase these rights for whatever they may be worth from gentlemen like Lord Leconfield, and "Page 11, after clause 23, insert the follow- to vest them in the representatives of ing clause:

MR. M. HEALY: Then I move it without the reference to that Act.

Amendment, with the omission of the words "the Lighting of Towns (Ire land) Act, 1828, or" agreed to.

Clause as amended added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.

"There shall be transferred to the council of every urban district excepted from section one hundred and sixty of the Public Health Act, 1878 (by reason of being a town or township having commissioners under a local Act) the business of the board of guardians as burial board, and the said council shall be the burial board for the district." (Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

Clause added to the Bill.
Mr T. M. Healy.

the district councils. Money might be advanced on easy terms, and fair compensation given. I do not desire to delay the Committee, but this is a point on which great interest is felt in the town of Ennis, and at the suggestion of the Ennis Commissioners, I once put a question on this subject. The first clause undoubtedly goes some way towards meeting the suggestion of the Commissioners

of Ennis, and the wishes of other towns, | a legitimate grievance, and would place but I do not think it will amount to all Irish towns on an equality in this much, unless some compulsory powers particular respect. I sincerely hope the are given. right honourable Gentleman will consider this.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR : The Government have carefully considered those points, and we do not think it is advisable in this clause to give compuland fair grounds. There is nothing to sory powers for the purchase of markets prevent a town from purchasing a town hall. Of course, they have not got compulsory powers to acquire land, but there ought to be no serious difficulty in way of purchasing town halls if they desired to do so.

the

CAPTAIN DONELAN: I desire to support the suggestion of my honourable Friend the Member for Clare. There is a town in my own neighbourhood, the circumstances of which are very much the same as those of Ennis, and the town commissioners requested me to place on the Paper an Amendment dealing with this matter. This I did before Easter, but you, Sir, ruled it out of order at that stage, and therefore I put it down as a new clause. I myself think that the urban councils are the MR. FIELD: Under the existing state proper authorities to have the control of things the management of the live and management of fairs and markets, stock business is not at all satisfactory, but I fear that an arrangement could and I think the result of this appeal hardly be carried out unless these powers will be to strengthen the hands of the of compulsory purchase are granted to right honourable Gentleman. Otherwise them-purchase, say, by arbitration at this change cannot be satisfactorily a fair and reasonable price. I would also carried out. suggest to the right honourable Gentleman the desirability of including town halls in this clause, if he can see his way to do it. In my clause I suggested that the council of any urban district should be entitled to acquire any existing town hall by arbitration; and I would suggest

an Amendment to this clause to the effect

that an urban authority shall be entitled to acquire any existing town hall on terms to be fixed by arbitration, or, if the right honourable Gentleman does not agree to that, any form of words to the same effect which he cares to accept. I might mention that there are towns in Ireland in which these town halls are

private property. They are not the majority of cases-most of the towns own their halls; but there are cases in which the town halls are private property, and in which the town commissioners have really no power even to hold their meetings without permission. In my own constituency of East Cork, in the town of Middleton, the town hall belongs to a local landlord, and the town commissioners have not even the power to hold meetings there without the permission of that landlord. I venture to think that if the right honourable Gentleman could see his way to include town halls within the scope of this olause, it would relieve

MR. W. REDMOND: I recognise what the Chief Secretary has said, and it is undoubtedly an attempt by the Govern ment to meet the case put forward in the Amendment that stands in the name of the honourable Gentleman the Member for Monaghan.

If the urban district councils do not gain possession of those rights over the markets and fairs, I hope that later on the Government will see the advisability of transferring those rights to the representative councils in whom they should be vested.

MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN (Kilkenny): I desire to call the attention of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secre tary for Ireland to the matter which I brought before him in the form of a question to-day, and in this case, at all events, he ought to see his way to relieve the city of Kilkenny of that burden and give them the right to manage their own affairs. He can relieve us of those amounts, and he ought to allow the city of Kilkenny to hold what fairs they please and when they please, because the Treasury does nothing to assist those fairs.

one

trust that the Government will see their way to make some proposal by which these markets will be acquired by arbitration and settled.

MR. MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, Mid): | matters they are managed more to the With regard to this question, it is benefit of the towns than when private which has been agitating the individuals control them, and I hope and public mind for a considerable time, and it is at present very unsatisfactory. Already the commissioners have practically had all the powers which the Government could give them, and they have not met the requirements in the way that they should be met. The fact of the matter is that the monopolists get possession of these markets and fairs, and they make no improvements. They do nothing for the benefit of the market towns, with the result that the

farm produce is diverted into other channels and the markets die. Wherever these old towns have not the facilities to

take care of their own markets and their

MR. JORDAN: I sympathise with honourable Members in their desire to endeavour to obtain control of the mar kets, but that would not be advisable unless they could obtain them at a fair price. I think this clause goes a considerable distance, but if you give conpulsory powers to the towns to buy the markets mentioned they would be apt instead of producing good it might be to pay too much for those markets, and an evil. I know of one town where the commissioners got power to buy the gasworks, but the gas company wanted too much money, and the commissioners did not buy them. In the same town they got the offer of the markets, but they would not buy too much and they would not derive because they thought the price was a sufficient revenue for their money. I the markets, in nine cases out of ten, if think, if you gave them power to buy they were proper financiers, they would not buy.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.

fairs, they, of course, are neglected, and they suffer accordingly. Now this question has been inquired into by three different Royal Commissions since 1853, and it has therefore been considered a matter of public interest. A Royal Commission has reported that where these matters are in the hands of private individuals and monopolists, invariably the interests of the market towns are sacrificed to the interests of private enterprise. Therefore I do think that the Government ought to reconsider this matter before they come to a final decision, because it is a very serious thing for some of the towns which are hampered in this way. We have got the markets now in such a condition that it is impossible to get the business done there which ought to be done in any kind of way that is at all practical. For instance, there is no proper If the weather is wet they are exposed to "(1) The council of any county district comthe inclemency of the weather. I do prising the whole or part of a fishery district think these are matters which ought to under the Fisheries (Ireland) Act, 1848, may be in the hands of the local authorities conservators of such fishery district a contrimake towards the expenses of the board of and not in the hands of local monopo-bution not exceeding in any one local financial lists, who desire nothing but to reap rich rewards and big profits. We feel that this is a state of things that ought not to be, considering that it has so long been a matter of consideration by various Royal Commissions, and invariably their reports have been that abuses, extortions, and illegalities have been practise in places where the fairs and markets were under the control of private indviduals or monopolists. When the town authorities have had charge of these

entrance.

"Page 11, after clause 25, insert the following clause

year a sum equal to a rate of one halfpenny in the pound on the rateable value of the county district at the beginning of the year.

66

(2) A district council making such contribution may appoint annually such number of persons as the Lord Lieutenant may determine to act as conservators of fisheries for gether with, the conservators under the said that fishery district, in addition to, and toAct."-(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

MR. VESEY KNOX: No amount of representation could be reasonably pro