DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.): May I ask the right honourable Gentleman one question with regard to Scotland? What are the intentions of the Government with regard to the Private Bill Procedure (Scotland) Bill? We have heard a great deal about it, and I have received a great mass of literature which leads me to suppose that some fair share of interest is felt in Scotland upon this question. Do the Government intend to carry on the Bill or to drop it! and what class of tribunal will it be referred to if it is to be proceeded with! Is the Committee to consist of a limited number of Scotch Members, or is the House to be fully represented on that Committee?

THE FIRST LORD

OF THE TREA

one other question, and that is with regard to the Indian Press Law Bill. I do not know whether I rightly under stood the noble Lord to say that it will be impossible to discuss this question and other questions relating to the administration of India, apart from financial questions, until the end of the Session. If that is the case, it will, I think, hardly be a fair opportunity for discussing the prospects of the Indian Press Law. This is a matter of enormous importance to India, and considerable interest is taken in it in England, and I hope that the Government will act fairly and considerately to those who take an interest in this matter by giving a day for its discussion. With regard to the Education Vote, I would second the appeal made by my honourable Friend the Member SURY: I may, perhaps, begin by for Nottingham that the House should replying to the rather extensive have a full opportunity for discussing number of questions which have been this question. The fact of the matter put to me by dealing with the is that the new rule in Supply has not one which has just been submitted by worked at all in some respects. Large the honourable Member for Aberdeenmasses of administrative work, which the House ought to consider, and which under the old system ought to be considered, is now dismissed under the new closure procedure. There are questions which have not been discussed for three years in this House, questions affecting important matters of administration. I would ask the right honourable Gentleman with regard to this question, at all events, in which great interest is taken throughout the country, that he will give the Committee of the House the fullest possible opportunity of discussing the educational policy of the country.

SIR A. FORWOOD (Lancashire, Ormskirk): Appeals have been made with reference to various Bills and Votes, but there is one Vote more important than any other, and that is the Vote dealing with the shipbuilding vote of the Admiralty. The shipbuilding policy of this country can only be properly and adequately discussed on Vote 8, which deals with something like seven or eight millions of money, and I hope that my right honourable Friend will take such measures as will bring that Vote on for discussion at a very early day, and not allow it to be deferred till late in the Session.

Mr. Lewis.

shire. He asks the Government what are their intentions with regard to the Private Bill Procedure (Scotland) Bill Our intentions really are very fully expressed upon the Order Paper of the House. We desire, in accordance with the generally-expressed wishes of the Scotch Members, to refer that Bill to a Select Committee. The Motion so referring it has been down on the Paper for three weeks at the least, and has been persistently blocked by one of the colleagues of the honourable Gentleman himself. I hope, however, that the opposition to the reference to a Committee will shortly be overcome, and that that Bill may be referred before a Select Committee with a view to legislation at a very early moment. As regards the appeal made by my right honourable Friend behind me and by other gentlemen with reference to Supply, I can only say what I have often said beforethat in allocating the Fridays at our disposal between the various votes we have no other object than that of meeting the general wishes of honourable Gentlemen in all parts of the House. But when the Member for Flintshire tells us that under the new system there is much smaller opportunity given to private Members to discuss the policy of

the Government, it gives a striking illus- his view with regard to Bills which have tration of how weak Parliamentary either been wholly uncontroversial up memories are. If the honourable Mem- to the present time, or have almost ber for Flintshire will cast back his mind reached their final stage in this House, to his own early experience in this it is rather absurd of the colleague House, he will, perhaps, recollect that sitting next him to ask that the Governthe system then in vogue was to have ment, in addition to these Measures, an odd day here and there given to shall introduce the question of agriculSupply, to have two or three nights tural reform, which, however it may be given to the Vote on Account, and shove drafted, must, and ought to have a large away for no other expression ade- amount of Parliamentary time devoted quately meets the case all other dis- to it. I have been asked many questions cussions on Supply, till they had to be by the honourable Member for Aberdealt with by a practically exhausted deenshire about Bills which are either House in the last period of the Session. before the House or to come before it. The critics of the Government to-night I do not think I can go beyond the may be divided into two classes-those general outline which I have already who think we ought to have brought in given. As to the Aliens Bill, that is not a great many more Bills than we have a Government Bill. The Companies done, among which class is the right Bill, which has been mentioned, is one honourable Gentleman, the Leader of which I believe, as far as I have heard, the Opposition, and those who think is not likely to come down to this House that the number of Bills which we have in the course of this Session at all. With already brought in is too great, and that regard to the Prisons Bill, I have every the time at our disposal will hardly be hope that that Measure may be passed adequate to discuss them all. The two before the end of the present Session, honourable Gentlemen sitting next each but certainly I should not like to give other, both distinguished representa- an absolute pledge on the subject. Two tives of Wales, should really agree a of my honourable Friends on this side little between themselves as to what of the House have mourned the dimi they want the Government to do. The nished privileges of private Members. I honourable Member for Carnarvon tells have not a word to say against private us that for his part a Bill which up to Members, nor am I going to conceal the this Parliament has always been passed fact that on some points I view with sub silentio namely, the Land Tax regret that some of their ancient priviCommissioners (Names) Bill-is, if leges have been diminished; but I bepressed, going to be discussed by him at lieve there is no body of men who would great length. view the diminution of those privileges with more satisfaction than the great bulk of the private Members themselves. I do not believe the majority of the Members of the House think that on the whole, with our modern methods of proTHE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-cedure, it is possible for private Members SURY: He proposes that it should to deal with legislation on a very large be remodelled at his instance. When scale. Valuable work of a non-controthe honourable Gentleman talks of versial character they have done, and remodelling they are doing, but I do not believe it an Act of Parliament I may remind him possible that they should do important that the process, however important and valuable or valuable work in the domain of elabo from a legislative point of view, is one rate or controversial legislation. So far that invariably consumes as resolutions are concerned, I believe time. He further gave the Government fair warnthat the first ventilation of many iming that one of the Bills which has portant Measures has been by private already passed the first and second readMembers on Tuesdays or on Fridays, and ings and gone to Grand Committee, is to I think what has borne good fruit in be met by him and his friends with the past may bear good fruit in the elaborate discussion. I think if that is future. But I do not think my honourable

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I never said 80; I simply pressed that it should be passed.

VOL. LVIII.

Friend will consider I am stepping to-morrow, end it is not really relevant beyond the bounds of controversy when at the present moment.

I say that on five-sixths, I think, of the
Tuesdays allocated to them in the course

*MR. CHANNING: There is the London

of the present Session private Members University Bill.
have shown their appreciation of the
privileges by counting the House out.

COMMANDER BETHELL: I think my right honourable Friend will admit that that is entirely due to the fact that private Members have not the least notion when their time will be taken from them.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, Sir; I cannot accept that solution. I think the easily explained desires for a dinner and for leisure are quite sufficient to account for the fact that it so often happens that at about eight o'clock on private Members' nights it is found that the requisite number of private Members are not here to deal with the questions in which they are interested. I do not know that there is anything else.

MR. JOHN MORLEY (Montrose): The London Bill.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I believe I promised my honourable Friend the Member for the Strand Division that I would give him a definite answer to his question immediately after Whitsuntide, but I believe that the question is down for

Aird, John

Allsopp, Hon. George
Arnold, Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Hugh 0.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Baden-Powell, Sir G. Smyth
Bailey, James (Walworth)
Balcarres, Lord

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch)
Banbury, Frederick George
Barnes, Frederic Gorell
Barry,RtHnAHSmith-(Hunts)
Barry, Francis T. (Windsor)
Bartley, George C. T.
Barton, Dunbar Plunket
Beach, Rt. Hn. SirM. H. (Bristol)
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe
Bethell, Commander
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Biddulph, Michael

Bigwood, James

Bill, Charles

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I hope the London Uniwill versity Bill honourable Gentleman the Member for The be passed. Kirkcaldy reproached the Government for having promised, I think he said, 12 Bills, and for being likely to pass & comparatively small fraction of them. When we framed the Queen's Speech we had before us a long series of examples of the difference between the hopes with which the Government begins the Ses sion and the actual performance of Parliament at the end of the Session, and we were careful to distinguish in that Speech between the Bills which there was a fair hope of passing and the Bills which it was not probable would be pressed if time would not permit. I do not think there is another question.

Several HONOURABLE MEMBERS: The London Bill !

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: At least, I do not appear to have made a note of any, and I hope the House may now, without Division, permit the Government to obtain the privileges for which they have asked.

The House divided:-Ayes 208; Noes 68. (Division List, No. 123.)

AYES.

Blundell, Colonel Henry
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-
Rowles, Capt.H.F. (Middlesex)
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)
Brassey, Albert

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Brookfield. A. Montagu
Brown, Alexander H.
Brymer, William Ernest
Bullard, Sir Harry
Butcher, John George
Buxton, Sydney Charles
Carlile, William Walter
Cecil, Lord Hugh

Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J. (Birm.)
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Charrington, Spencer
Coddington, Sir William
Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

The First Lord of the Treasury.

Colston, C. E. H. Athole
Cook, F. Lucas (Lambeth)
Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.
Cranborne, Viscount
Cripps. Charles Alfred
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Curzon, Rt. Hn.GN(Lane.SW)
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.
Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield-
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Dorington, Sir J. Edward
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.
Drage, Geoffrey

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart
Edwards, Gen. Sir J. Beran
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tattor
Fardell, Sir T. George
Finch, George H.

ORDER OF THE DAY.

FINANCE BILL.

Order for Second Reading read.

care that, as far as

possible, it

shall be distributed so as to relieve the burdens of those who are too

heavily taxed. That is the ground on which we take up the position of asking that out of the surplus now in hand provision might be made for the

Motion made and Question proposed--purpose of relieving the clergy, who are

"That the Bill be now read a second time."

Amendment proposed

"Leave out from the word that' to the end of the question, in order to add the words

can

overburdened with taxation. This time last year there was a Debate in the House, at the conclusion of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the course open to us was to lay our case before the Commission on Rating

"That any readjustment of taxation should then sitting. The Chancellor of the Exinclude a remission in favour of clergymen chequer recognised the existence of the whose income is wholly or in part derived from tithe, and in whose case it be grievance, and also that the grievance shown that they are contributing more than required a remedy. After hearing that their due share of local taxation."-Colonel opinion a sub-committee of the Church Milward.) Parliamentary Committee was formed for the purpose of obtaining what evidence *COLONEL MILWARD (Warwick, we could. We obtained a very large Stratford-on-Avon): I wish it had amount of evidence. That evidence forms fallen to the lot of someone more the foundation of our grievances. That in the habit of addressing the particular branch of evidence contained

House to move the Amendment which the circumstances of a number of clergystands in my name, but I have the satis that the cases cited in the Report are and unless it should be thought men; faction of knowing that I shall be fol- harder than those of other clergymen, lowed by others of greater experience I beg to say that I have seen many on a question which has attracted the attention of the country. I am glad to bear evidence of cases worse than those other communications, some of which see that there have been very sympathetic cited in the Report. I am afraid I must notices in the Press with reference to the quote the statistics contained in the evicase of the clergy. I desire to base my dence given by the honourable Member argument upon words which fell from the for Tunbridge on our behalf. These are lips of the honourable Member for Angle with respect to what I may call the sey on this subject in the course of the larger and smaller livings. In the case Debato last year. He said that the whole of the larger livings the present value of question resolves itself into this, whether the tithe is £3,110 5s. 2d.; and the the clergy do or do not pay more than their rates on the tithe amount to £466 6s. 8d. fair share of the taxation of the country. The total income of the eight livings I That is the point on which I desire to allude to is £3,110 5s. 2d., and the total address the House this afternoon. I would remind the House of two prin- is £466 6s. 8d.; that is to say, that amount of rates placed on these tithes ciples. One of them is the equality of all the average tithe rent charge of these men before the law, i.e., that there is no reason why the clergy should pay more eight livings is £392 a year, and the or less of the taxes of the country than amounting to no less than the sum of average amount of rates is £58 a year, any other persons; and the other prin- 3s. in the £ income tax paid by these ciple is that it is the custom in clergymen, in addition to the ordinary this country as in every other income tax. In the smaller livings, in country to adjust the burden of taxa.

tion to fit the shoulders of those who

six cases the total value of the rent have to bear it. From time to time in this charge is £704 2s. 2d., and the rates on tithe are £155 ls. 9d. The average Majesty's subjects who aro overburdened tithe rating charge amounts to £117 by taxation; every Chancellor of the a year, and the average amount of rates Exchequer who has a surplus takes they pay is £26 a year, equivalent to

House we relieve a certain class of Her