Hearings

The conference between the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections of the Committee on Rules and Administration and attorneys representing the Honorable Dennis Chavez, United States Senator from New Mexico, and attorneys representing the Honorable Patrick J. Hurley, Republican candidate for the office of United States Senator, relative to applicable laws concerning the conduct of elections in the State of New Mexico, met at 9:30 a. m., in the Federal court room, Federal Building, Albuquerque, N. Mex., Wellford H. Ware, chief counsel of the subcommittee (representing the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Wellford H. Ware, chief counsel, Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections.

Also present: A. T. Hannett, Esq., chief counsel, Samuel Z. Montoya, David Chavez, Everet M. Grantham, Charles C. Spann, W. S. Lindamood, and George W. Hannett, all representing the Honorable Dennis Chavez, Senator from New Mexico; and Quincy D. Adams, Esq., chief counsel, William V. Kastler, and Stephen Alex, all representing the Honorable Patrick J. Hurley.

Mr. WARE. The conference will come to order.

Mr. HANNETT. May we ask that the press be present?

Mr. WARE. Not at this time.

Mr. HANNETT. Then we refuse to participate in the meeting. We want the press here at all times.

Mr. WARE. You want the press present?

Mr. HANNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. WARE. All right then, the press may remain. May I ask if everyone is present?

Mr. HANNETT. I am chief counsel for Dennis Chavez. I am Governor Hannett. Mr. Grantham, David Chavez, Sam Montoya, Bill Lindamood, George W. Hannett.

Mr. ADAMS. Quincy Adams, representing General Hurley. Mr. Kastler will be here a little later on. Mr. Steve Alex, from Santa Fe. Mr. WARE. We are all present and we will proceed with the opening of the meeting. First of all I would like to give you a statement of principles. [Reading:]

On April 17, 1953, the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections of the Committee on Rules and Administration of the United States Senate, under the authority conferred upon it by the Constitution of the United States and the

Standing Rules of the United States Senate, ordered a recount of the ballots cast in the general election held November 4, 1952, in the State of New Mexico. The subcommittee further ordered its chief counsel to proceed to New Mexico and to hold conferences with the respective counsels for the Honorable Dennis Chavez, United States Senator, and the Honorable Patrick J. Hurley, the Repub-. lican candidate for United States Senator, in the general election of November 4, 1952, for the purpose of entering into written stipulations as to the conduct of the aforesaid recount of ballots. Based upon the laws of New Mexico, the said stipulations signed by said attorneys, when approved by the subcommittee, are to become binding upon the parties.

It should be understood at the outset of these conferences that this procedure of permitting the parties to enter written stipulations is merely a courtesy extended to the parties and is a proceeding in the interest of objectivity and justice. Under article I, section 5, of the Constitution of the United States "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns, and qualifications of its own Members." Therefore, your stipulations shall become part of the evidence upon which the United States Senate shall base its judgment. If you cannot agree, rules based on the laws of the State of New Mexico will be ordered by the subcommittee. It is the sincere hope of the subcommittee and myself, however, that you will be able to find a reasonable basis for agreement upon all of the points to be considered.

Are there any questions in relation to the purposes of the conferences?

Mr. HANNETT. May I say at the outset that we desire to cooperate with the representatives of the Senate subcommittee and opposing counsel to the end that this matter be expedited as rapidly as possible and with the least cost to the taxpayers. However, before proceeding further, we would like to know exactly the scope of the inquiry. At this time I desire to call your attention, Mr. Ware, to a conference which I had in my office in which we discussed some of the problems that we are confronted with. As I understood you to say, no witnesses would be called at this recount, for any purpose whatsoever.

Mr. WARE. Insofar as the proceedings of the recount are concerned, Governor?

Mr. HANNETT. That is right.

Mr. WARE. That would be an accurate statement as far as the recount itself is concerned. As to what the subcommittee will do in relation to calling witnesses, I do not know. If they so desire, they have authority to hold hearings in relation to any matter which is pertinent to the recount.

Mr. HANNETT. Well I am not going to comment on the question of the recount. I assume that from our conference that all the master registration books will be brought in from each county and also the pollbooks and the election certificates and all the records in the county clerk's office in each county. It has been my experience, and my experience is not inconsiderable, that in a very great number of instances, I would say they run into the thousands, a person will present himself to vote and say his name is John Edward Brown and he is so registered.

He presents himself to vote and he is acquainted with the election judges and they say, "Johnny Brown, such and such a street and such and such a number, and is recorded as voting under the name of Johnny Brown." If we were to compare the registration books with the pollbooks, Johnny Brown would not be registered. And, his vote, in regard to the view that an error made, such as that, on the part of an election official does not disfranchise Mr. Brown. In other words, we believe that we would be wasting our time in making a

recount unless we are permitted to bring in witnesses in instances of that kind.

There may be other instances where it may be necessary to have witnesses, but certainly in that case, not only under the laws of the State of New Mexico, but we think the studied law throughout the land, that man shall not be disfranchised whether he voted for Hurley or Chavez. Until the records are thoroughly explored, John Brown has a right to come in and say he was the man, and there would be opportunity on both sides to see whether John Brown is telling the truth or not.

Mr. WARE. Could I say this to you? If you would hold those questions until we come to the part of the conference dealing with legally qualified voters, then at that time it would be in order to present your arguments in relation to the determination of when a man is not a registered voter. That is the purpose of the conference, so we may obtain your thoughts in this matter and obtain the thoughts of Mr. Adams and his counsel, and try to bring the two parties together to some agreement as to what the law is in relation to that; and what proof we are going to accept as to when a person is registered or when he is not registered. If you could hold those questions until that time, I think they would be more in order.

Mr. HANNETT. Well, I just want to present our views as to the question of the recount, from the very outset. Further, I understood you to say that on the allegations of fraud and coercion set up in Mr. Hurley's petition, that, as to the allegations of fraud, coercion, misconduct of election officials and matters of that kind, you do not propose to take any evidence.

Mr. WARE. No, I did not say that, Governor. I said that we would do this. That as is the practice of the United States Senate, in all committees of Congress, information of that nature is turned over directly to the committee by its staff investigators. Then it is up to the committee to decide what they are going to do, whether they will call witnesses; whether they will hold public hearings rather, and call witnesses and inquire into those matters that way; or accept the findings of the staff. That is purely a question I cannot answer for you and the committee itself would not be able to answer for you, other than to tell you that they were going to examine the facts submitted by the staff. From that point it is up to the committee to determine whether they will come to New Mexico as a committee and hold public hearings in relation to that, or hold executive hearings in relation to those facts that are found by the staff.

Mr. HANNETT. It seems to me, sir, that if we go through this recount with the allegations of fraud, misconduct, blanket allegations hurled at every election officials in this State, as it were, from the State canvassing board down, that they were guilty of various crimes and misconduct, and by reason of that Senator Hurley, Mr. Hurley, should be seated, we should have an opportunity to be confronted by the witnesses and have an opportunity to cross-examine them, subpena witnesses in our own behalf and enjoy those sacred rights that are peculiar to the Anglo-Saxon people for centuries. A man should not be removed from office or found guilty of any kind of misconduct except in an open hearing, not by a police state procedure where questions of fraud and questions of misconduct of election officials and misconduct of others shall be determined by hearings where they

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