pledged to extend the north branch improvement of the Susquehanna to the state line, and that up the Delaware to Carpenter's point, if not to the Lackawaxen.

Nor yet is this all. The only feasible route, if there is one, from the city of Philadelphia to lake Erie by water, will be found to be by the west branch of the Susquehanna. And you have other deficiencies in the state works which must be supplied, in order to make those profitable which have already been constructed.

How is it with the Allegheny from the mouth of the Kiskiminetas upwards to the state line? The state of Pennsylvania, to do justice to herself, must extend the navigation of the Allegheny river to that point, and all these improvements will be cut off, if you adopt the proposition before you. Are the people in all the counties of the state through which these improvements must pass, ready to surrender their claims? Does any gentleman here imagine that they are ready to do so? If he does, I can assure him that he deceives himself greatly, and I call upon gentlemen to pause and reflect before they tie up the hands of the legislature, and say that nothing further shall be done.

I am altogether opposed to this proposition. It involves no principle of government, it never ought to form a part of the fundamental law of the land, and, so far as my opposition can go, it never shall. It is a sheer matter of legislation-a matter on which legislative discretion may be well exercised. And whenever the people of this commonwealth shall deem it expedient to increase the state debt, I want to know whether they are not sufficiently capable of self-government to decide how far they shall go? I ask, gentlemen, are not the people capable of judging for themselves in this matter? And I ask further, whether any gentleman can point me to a single petition asking this convention to insert a provision of this nature in our organic law? I again call upon gentlemen to pause, and reflect seriously on this question. I ask those delegates who reside in a part of the commonwealth which as yet has received no benefit from the system of internal improvements, whether they are willing to tie their hands from this time, henceforth and forever? I ask the delegation from the city of Philadelphia-I ask the delegation from the county of Philadelphia, if they are willing, by sanctioning a provision of this character, to shut up all the other avenues of trade to this citythis great commercial emporium of our commonwealth, than those now in use? If they are willing to say that nothing more shall be done? For they could not take a more effectual way of doing it than by passing the amendment proposed. The county in which he resided had received but a small share of the public money. It is true that a part of the Delaware canal, passing through the county of Bucks, extending some seven miles into Northampton, was of great importance to the citizens of Northampton who had felt the benefit of it.

But we have had a survey made extending the work to other counties, and the faith of the state had been pledged to carry it into effect. And we are not willing to release the commonwealth from its obligation. There are other objections. If it was proper to limit the state debt, as was contended by some, he would ask gentlemen if that which they now thought a proper amount of state debt, would be so regarded when our population should be doubled or quadrupled. The state of Pennsylvania

was marching on in population-emigration was induced by her climate, her institutions, her agricultural and her mineral wealth; and doubtless in a quarter of a century the population would be doubled.

Now, he would ask, supposing that to be the case, whether the state debt, limited to the amount proposed, would be sufficient? When the internal improvements are paying the interest of the debt, the debt may be considered as paid. We should soon have income enough to pay the interest of the improvements. But whether we had or not, he did not care a button. He (Mr. P.) would put it to those gentlemen who live in the neighborhood of the improvements to say whether or not they had not enhanced the value of their property far beyond the amount of the expenditure. He was not to be frightened at these bugaboos. He would be willing that we should pay off the debt, and begin again-take a fresh start. There was no danger to be apprehended from incurring a new debt, when by so doing we are enhancing the value of property, and consulting the convenience and comfort of every man in the commonwealth. As we are embarked in this internal improvement system, he did not think it would be doing justice to those parts of the state who had not partaken of the benefits of it, to give it up. He moved the indefinite postponement of the report and amendment.

Mr. AGNEW, of Beaver, said that he should most certainly vote for the indefinite postponement of the report and amendment. He was free to admit that when the report was first presented to the convention the impression made upon his mind was favorable to it. But examination and reflection had convinced him that he was mistaken in the view he had taken of it. He thought that no man who had considered the subject could have any hesitation as to the course he ought to pursue. He viewed it without any reference to local or sectional feeling. This convention ought to act on the great principles of policy, and not on sectional grounds. Who, he asked, could calculate what would be the amount of our wealth, and the extent of our resources for the next twenty years? And who would pretend to say what ought to be our policy for that period to come? During the last twenty years the commonwealth of Pennsylvania had increased in wealth and population far beyond what any man could have foreseen; and no man could see the eminence it was capable of reaching. To stop our internal improvements now, and to say that the state debt shall not be increased beyond thirty millions, was preposterous. This was a subject which the public mind and the public sense should regulate.

It had no connexion with the power of the government, nor with the liberty of individuals, but it was simply a question of policy only. It was a question of policy dependent on circumstances. On this subject of debt the people are always more sensitive than on any other. The fact is-when you touch their pockets, you touch their feelings. There could be no doubt of the propriety of exercising a proper vigilance to prevent the public money from being squandered. But while that was admitted, we ought not, on the other hand, to be parsimonious, and thus lose sight of the interests of the state. While others states were marching to power and wealth, in consequence of the exercise of public spirit in reference to their internal improvements, shall it be said that Pennsylvania, with a capital greater than any of them, shall cripple herself by

a constitutional provision of this sort? There certainly existed no motive of policy for doing so, at least none that he could perceive. Such a provision would, in his opinion, be detrimental to the best interests of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. What would be the consequence of it? Did any man suppose it would prevent a debt? When works are going on, and the commonwealth cannot raise a public loan in order to complete them, the state would feel itself compelled to commit those works to the hands of private corporations to finish them. It would be found, too, that the representatives of the people would not hesitate to vote for the adoption of that course, particularly when they said that public opinion pointed it out, and that other states were taking the lead of Pennsylvania. When great public and productive works were abandoned by the state, private corporations would carry them on-would do what the state ought to have done, and the state would subscribe for the stock.

Now, it was no argument in favor of the proposed amendment, to say that hereafter if the state did not like this restriction, the constitution could be amended, and that the people must wait until that was done, before they could carry their great work of internal improvement into completion. Matters of this sort ought, in his opinion, to be regulated by circumstances.

Mr. CHANDLER, of Philadelphia said that considering the city of Philadelphia was deeply interested in internal improvements, he would avail himself of the present opportunity to make a few remarks. He was in favor of the indefinite postponement, because he considered the debt in which the state was now involved had been the means of the greatest fiscal blessings the state had ever enjoyed. It was not the fact only that merchandize could be transported to, or from, the city of Philadelphia, but that the great mines of our state had been opened, and all the vast products sent to market-thus diffusing wealth to every part of our community. The state debt had emphatically been a blessing to us, and it should be so regarded. At present, however, the improvements were not sufficiently extended for all to enjoy them. It might be said, he presumed, that the works already executed, did not seem to warrant the amount of debt which had been incurred. That might appear to be

the case, but then it was to be recollected that at the commencement of the internal improvement system, (as commonly happened in making new experiments,) a great deal more money was spent than would now be done in making the same kind of improvement. The state debt was at present, under thirty millions of dollars; but, if it was restricted to thirty, forty, or one hundred millions of dollars, it would seem to be an indirect invitation to extend the debt to the amount to which it might be limited. It was the policy of the state to keep the debt as low as it consistently could.

Pennsylvania was surrounded by rivals for the trade of the west. She felt that she was yet behind the state of New York as to her internal improvements. Much money had been spent by this commonwealth to compete with her, and it had been well spent, and much more would be required to give the state the pre-eminence which she ought to attain among the great agricultural and commercial states of the Union. More channels of communication must be opened with the interior by canals

Were we to say

and rail roads, so as to enlarge the operations of trade. that we would not go on with our improvements, and that we would jeopard all we had done? It would be bad policy indeed, to throw away all that we have attained, and jeopard all hopes of the future.

It was true, as had been remarked by the gentleman from Beaver, (Mr. Agnew) that one of the consequences of limiting the state debt would be to throw works, cominenced under state authority, into the hands of private companies, in order that they might be completed under their superintendence. The state would have to extend its credit to carry them through. That was certain, and even if it was one of the best companies in the state, it would be rendered unproductive, if the state debt should amount to the prescribed sum as proposed by the amendment now under consideration, or any other, and it should happen to be unfinished.

The state had authorized the making of a rail road from Sunbury to Erie, and a branch to Pittsburg, and it may be necessery for the state to take it to themselves from the company. He asked if we should limit the state debt so as to take away the power of doing good. It would be legislating with a good intention-cutting off the means of good-providing for the chances of almost the certainty of evil. The people of Pennsylvania have no need to be alarmed about their state debt-he meant those living out of the city of Philadelphia. Philadelphia had curtailed the amount of her proportion. He apprehended that there were parts of the country-the large counties especially through which the improvements pass--where the people are jealous enough of the great land owners. Besides, they have a representation in the legislature who are required to vote against the extension of the state debt-the very proposition we have here. And it only went to show that the people were jealous of a state debt. It, therefore, was, as he had before reinarked, good policy to keep it as low as it can consistently with the welfare of the commonwealth be kept.

If it was the wish of the people of this great state to hang behind the state of Maryland, why they could say so at once. If we were desirous to promote, as far as we could, the prosperity of New York, and to be tributary to her, then it would be as well to limit the state debt. Or if, also, we wish to be tributary to New Jersey, we might say the same. We could give up all to our rivals.

The legislature have the power to do all this, and they would do it. whenever it shall be said that the interests of Pennsylvania are not worth caring for. We could then carry our coals and iron to the great empire state-to whom we were bound to pay all homage and deference. When we were prepared to do that the citizens would lay the keys of our state at the feet of New York, and with ropes round their necks would ask to be permitted to be her slaves!

Supposing it to be really necessary to limit the state debt, we all knew how popular would be the legislators who would assert that they did not wish to tax the people-to tax the poor for the benefit of the rich? All this would be the result of adopting the proposition now pending before

the convention.

He, however, relied on the good sense of the people of Pennsylvania,

and could not believe that they would give their assent to any such provision. We were all alive, if not to our own mental condition, at least, to the physical advantages of what we have now, or may possess. And he trusted that the convention would never be found aiding and abetting in any act, to check the improvement and prosperity of the state. No difficulty was experienced in paying the interest of the debt. Our canals and rail roads were rich in productiveness, and had increased and would increase in value. If he was ready to say that the debt should not exceed the present amount, then would he also be ready to say that he was content with the prosperity the state of Pennsylvania already enjoyed that he desired no greater, and that he did not care about New York, New Jersey and Maryland outstripping Pennsylvania in internal improvement, in wealth and every thing else.

He trusted that the question would be immediately postponed, so that the legislature might not be led to suppose that this convention were willing to commit any such suicidal act as to adopt a provision of this

character.

Mr. HAYHURST, of Columbia, wished to say a few words on this question before giving his vote. He was not willing to have it understood that he wished the public debt to be increased. He thought, that we had gone rather too far in proportion to our means with our internal improvements. He, however, was not for crippling the energies of the state, and permitting other states to take the lead of Pennsylvania in their internal improvements. He had been anticipated, in part, in what it was his intention to have said, by the gentleman from Northampton (Mr. Porter) and the gentleman from the city of Philadelphia, (Mr. Chandler) therefore he had only a few observations to make.

One objection might be removed by the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Lancaster, and that was by saying the state debt should not exceed a certain amount in a time of exigency or war. But he was not willing to say now what might be necessary for the future, and he would not limit the public debt to any particular sum, because the people were always competent to decide what might be necessary for the time being. If there was any one thing more than another of which the people were particularly jealous it was their money. There was nothing which rendered a legislator more popular with the people, than his being the opponent of taxation. In what a predicament would the adoption of such an amendment as this place us! All knew that we were liable to accidents by flood, or fire or a thousand unforeseen disastrous events. And yet with all this knowledge before us, we were prepared to prostrate the energies of Pennsylvania at the first calamity! For, as has been truly observed by the delegate from the city, (Mr. Chandler) if the debt was limited to fifty or thirty millions, or any other sum, it would be a direct invitation to involve the state to that amount. Many of the public works depend for their utility upon the dams erected in the river Susquehanna. Well, supposing them to be swept away by an inundation, and the state to be in debt to the amount fixed by the constitutionhow was legislative aid to be obtained? It could give no aid; and thus by the adoption of such an amendment as this, we should make desolation still more desolate. After having expended twenty six millions in making internal improvements, we should be prevented by an unfortu