they produced from the Leader of Her | a palliative. If he had said that at first Majesty's Government in the House, and left out the higher language with nothing more than a long speech of chaff which he opened, it would have been and ridicule. The only solace they could more consonant with the conclusions the produce for the agricultural constituencies right hon. Gentleman had been able to put was an oration from the Chancellor of before them. What had they got before the Exchequer, which was noted in every them? They had a measure which newspaper report as being accompanied seemed to be conceived in a very simple by roars of laughter repeated over and spirit, and which was this that if some over again. They had, therefore, looked people, but not the Government, chose earnestly to the time when they were to to take an interest in this matter, then have produced for their consideration a something might occur which, under posmeasure which was really to embody the sible circumstances, might be of benefit the collective wisdom and deliberate to some districts connected with agri judgment of Her Majesty's Government, culture. The right hon. Gentleman had as to what was possible to be done in the been emphatic in his declaration that circumstances under which agriculture there was to be no aid whatever from was suffering. And so to-night, when the National Exchequer. Agriculture did they heard the preamble of the right hon. not expect that sort of treatment from Gentleman's speech, they were struck by the custodians of the national purse. the weighty words he used, and the There were other circumstances connected intense earnestness of his remarks. The with agriculture in which the Nationa President of the Board of Trade, in ask. Exchequer had been willing to spend ing for leave to introduce this Bill, had money. He had a recollection of a protold them the Government felt that every posal in which it was thought advisable possible step should be taken to remove to devote £250,000 of national money the depression under which agriculture under a measure dealing with the evicted was suffering. Every possible step to tenants of Ireland; but to a measure conremove the agricultural depression, and nected with the unevicted tenants of alleviate the needs and miseries of the England the National Exchequer could agricultural districts, was therefore not contribute a single farthing. He bound up in the measure which the right was glad the right hon. Gentleman hon. Gentleman was now asking leave to repudiated the idea of putting this burden introduce. All he could say was, that upon the rates, and he must have rethis measure did not fulfil the idea of cognised that those who were interested hon. Members representing agricultural in agricultural districts would have conconstituencies of every possible step that sidered any such suggestion as a mockery could be taken, and it would be regarded and a farce. The right hon. Gentleman as a poor and paltry measure indeed. had said that the money was to be proThe Bill not only expressed every pos- vided by national sources and national sibility of which the Government was causes, and among these he had mencapable in the direction of removing the tioned the public spirit which he hoped depression, but it was also, they were would induce landowners to give their told, to prevent the depopulation of their land for nothing, in order that these districts and provide the cheaper com- experiments might be tried. The right munication so essentially important to all hon. Gentleman should have remembered other rural districts. Those were the that he brought forward this measure opening remarks of the right hon. Gen-appealing to the public spirit of the landtleman; but he afterwards went a tone owners in the year subsequent to that or two lower, and told them that after all in which the Chancellor of the Exche he did not expect it to prove more than quer did the utmost that was possible Colonel W. Kenyon-Slaney.

wound from which their very life blood was now flowing, it was almost a mockery and absurdity to try to heal that wound with the ridiculous sticking-plaster of this Bill.

to ruin these landowners once class of the population from whom they and for ever. When he besought the had taken away the power to be generous. public spirit of the landowners to come They were depending on the business-like to the relief of the National Exchequer capabilities of another class whose he should remember that last Session, by interests would go in the very opposite the proposals of the Chancellor of direction to that in which they hoped the Exchequer the Government were to enlist them. After the experience of engaged in mutilating and destroy- last Session, when the Government ining the power of the landowners flicted upon the agricultural interest a to do that which they were now appealed to do. If they could not get the landowners as a class to do that which the Government themselves would not do, they then said that the railway companies would possibly undertake this *MR. E. STRACHEY (Somerset, S.) task. But they could not suppose that submitted that those who represented railway companies would undertake English constituencies had a right to anything of the sort from the merely claim that as long as public money was philanthropic point of view in which given for the purpose of benefiting landowners had often done such things, agriculture in Ireland and Scotland, and would now if the Government the same policy should be pursued as had not deprived them of the power. regards England. On the other hand, Railway companies could only do it he was quite ready to admit that there where there was a prospect of a were strong arguments against any State possible and legitimate profit to their aid at all for such local enterprises as shareholders, and it was a doubtful light railways. But then it must be the question whether in this same in every part of the United there would be such а profit. Kingdom, and no exception must be The agricultural districts will be divided made in favour of one part. England roughly into two classes. There were should no longer be taxed for dethe districts near the main track which, veloping the local resources of Irebeing already well served by existing land or Scotland and herself receive railways, could not be expected to benefit no such aid. In the past it might by a subsidiary measure such as this; have been argued that Ireland and and there were the districts situate in Scotland were poor countries, and that mountainous or rather wild parts of the England was a rich country and country, where from the conformation of could afford to do without a guarthe country the expense of laying lines antee while paying for a guarantee would be greater. These, too, would be for Scotland and for Ireland. But the districts where, from the thinness of that was not the case at the prethe population, the distances over which sent moment, and he thought that if the lines would have to run would be the right hon. Gentleman the President considerable, and those were the very of the Board of Trade were to ask the circumstances which would make the right hon. Gentleman the President of lines less likely to pay. The facts were the Board of Agriculture, the latter inconsistent with the idea that railway would tell him that an imperial guarcompanies could make these lines as antee for the making of light railways paying concerns except under exceptional circumstances. The Government were depending on a broken reed. They were depending on the generosity of a VOL. XXXII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

case.

would be as much required in Essex as it would be in the case of any county in Ireland or Scotland. The fact was, that the cost of making these light railways

4 C

would have to come out of the pockets of the local landlords and farmers.

were to pass, would remain a dead letter in too many cases.

MR. BRYCE: I said that the great CAPTAIN BETHELL (York, E.R., railway companies might be induced to Holderness) said, that he was inclined make the light railways. to think that in some parts of the *MR. STRACHE Y considered country, at all events, the provisions of that it was not very likely the great the Bill might possibly operate benerailway companies would under- ficially, but he thought that it was open take the cost of making lines which to doubt whether a permissive Bill of might eventually compete with their this character could be useful to any own. It was also most improbable that great extent. If the railway company people would sell out of the Consols or were to agree to construct these light out of the ordinary railway companies' railways, some power should be conferred stock in order to invest their money in upon the Board of Trade to prevent the the construction of these light railways, companies from charging excessive rates. whatever might have been the case in The measure conferred upon the County the old days. The landlords and farmers Councils for the first time very large would not now be able, in view of the legislative powers, and authorised present depressed state of agriculture, them sanction the construction

to contribute very largely, if at all, of these lines by mere resolution. towards the construction of these pro- County Councils ought to be compelled to posed lines. He thought pressure consider in certain circumstances these might be brought to bear upon the resolutions carefully and fully. [Mr. great railway companies to lower their BRYCE observed that the hon. Member's present excessive rates by the threat point would be met by the Bill.] Then of the construction of light rail- there was the question of guarantee. ways. It would be possible in many He quite agreed that they could not cases to construct these lines with some allow County Councils to burden the probability of success, and the great rates with these guarantees. The farmers railway companies would think it would rise up in arms against such a worth while to make concessions. He proposal, agricultural distress being so knew of one case in which a railway great. A public guarantee was, of company had consented to reduce their course, a difficult matter, but prerates for the carriage of milk by one- cedents were supplied by the cases of half in consequence of the local farmers Scotland and Ireland. threatening to send their milk by road instead of by railway. In the same way it would be quite open to the farmers and the landlords of the locality to say to a railway company

"If you do not reduce your rates we will ask the County Council to sanction the construction of a light railway through our district;

MR. BRYCE said, that as regarded Government interest in railways Scotland generally was no better off than England. What had been done by the Government for Scotland was done for districts corresponding to the distressed districts in Ireland.

CAPTAIN BETHELL (York, W.R., Holderness) said, that in Scotland there and he believed that such a threat might were railways which were guaranteed in be successful and would lead the railway order that suffering agriculturists might company to reduce their rates. In many be assisted, and the principle applied in cases the reduction of railway rates the cases of Ireland and part of Scotland would be as beneficial to a district as might well be extended to England, the construction of a light railway. In where, partly owing to circumstances his view, however, the present Bill, if it beyond their control and partly to the Mr. E. Strachey.

action of the present Government and embankments, but in the Eastern countheir supporters, agriculture was in an ties there would be greater simplicity, extremely distressed condition. He was and they would derive greater beneinclined to think that the precedent fits and experience them sooner than might have been followed in the urgent the more hilly parts of the country. circumstances of the case, but it would During the past week he had had the of course be necessary to use very great pleasure of visiting Holland, and he was care in applying it. Something ought very much struck with the extreme certainly to be done to palliate the dis- prosperity of the country. He could tress in those parts of the country where not help recognising the fact that that the great railways were unwilling to prosperity seemed a good deal to result undertake new works. One could not, from the network of steam tramways of course, expect very much from a Light that existed in the country; which, by Railways Bill. It was introduced, he bringing not only produce but passengers understood, to relieve hon. Gentlemen to the stations of the larger towns, secured opposite from the charge that they were to Holland the benefits which he believed not very solicitous for the welfare of the would ultimately result to this country agricultural interest, a charge rightly from the Bill the House was now conbased upon their action a year or two sidering. ago. But he was afraid that this poor little Bill would not do very much to assist them in this matter, and he feared also that it would not do very much to assist the agricultural interest.

*MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSON (Preston) said, that in many parts of the country tramways had been constructed along roads. Their cost was considerably less than that of Light Railways, and it would MR. W. CROSFIELD (Lincoln) be a matter of which the companies thought that the chief merit of the would have no right to complain if measure lay in its simplicity and in the the Board of Trade required that, where cheapness of the methods which it pro it was possible, they should combine with posed. That being his view, he was not the passenger traffic they now carried on surprised that the hon. Member who re- certain facilities for dealing with agripresented Shropshire should have been cultural produce. Two things would be somewhat more vigorous in his denuncia- required to make tramways available for tions of the measure than the right hon. this object, one that the tramway proprieMember who represented Sleaford. The tors should be put under some obligation effectiveness of the measure would be to deal with merchandise, and the other different in different parts of the country. that they should be connected with the He could well believe that in Shropshire great railways. He felt sure that somethe element of cheapness would not be thing might be done in this way to so conspicuous as in other counties. The develop the resources of the agricultural hon. Member for Thirsk had expressed the districts. At the meeting in December, wish that the bridges which should be built to which the right hon. Gentleman had should be made wide enough to bear ulti- referred, a good deal was said, and a mately the ordinary gauge of railways. But paper was circulated upon what this measure did not contemplate a plan had been done in Belgium. He was of that kind. The light railways under strongly impressed with the idea that consideration were to be accessories to the tramways and connecting links with rather than limbs of the great railway railways in that country received subsystem of England and Wales. In stantial aid from the Government; and Shropshire, no doubt, owing to the he did not believe that it would be posconfiguration of the country, it would sible in this country in the agricultural be necessary to build bridges and make districts to carry out any system unless

some aid was given by the Government. | Bill would do much for agriculture, or The prospect of the railway companies that railway companies were likely to doing anything to promote these Light invest the money of shareholders in these Railways did not seem to him likely to Light Railways, or that capitalists would be realised. Everyone knew from what give much capital to further such took place before the Railway Rates undertakings. If the Government had Committee, how little the railway com- been anxious to promote Light Railpanies cared to give any facilities for ways in England they would have carrying British agricultural produce. adopted the course which was adopted The revival of agriculture was impossible in Ireland; they would have proposed if the railway companies were to be some material assistance so as to induce allowed to continue to put the rural the companies or the capitalists to districts at so great a disadvantage as embark upon such undertakings. they did at present. In the light of was suggested that landowners would their past action, it was hardly to be give their land for the purpose of expected that any help was to be got enabling the railways to be made; but from the railway companies. it was not always in their power to give MR. J. A. PEASE (Northumberland, land. Where land could be given a Tyneside) said, that the case of Ireland Light Railway might not be wanted, was not a precedent. The position of or it might probably not be successful if Ireland was different from the condition made. The cost, moreover, of obtaining of affairs which existed in agricultural the necessary order for making the raildistricts at the present time here. When it was considered necessary to apply to the Exchequer for aid to make railways in Ireland, it was to save thousands of the Irish people from starvation in the congested districts. The Government had, therefore, done well to refuse any national funds for the purpose of the in similar undertakings should be disBill in this country. Distress and depression existed in other industries besides that of agriculture, and if agriculture received this aid, in all probability other industries would claim it likewise.

way, if the scheme was opposed, would certainly approximate towards the cost of the inquiries before the House of Commons, because counsel and skilled witnesses would have to be taken into the country. It was novel, also, to find that the safeguards thought to be necessary

pensed with to such an extent as the right hon. Gentleman had suggested. Take the case of level crossings. He was under the belief that the strongest objection was entertained to level crossings being considered safe, even *MR. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.) where they were attended, and if sympathised with the Gladstonian county left unattended the danger was greater. Members on this subject. They seemed He doubted whether there would be that to be in an exceedingly depressed frame enormous saving of expense which the of mind. They had gone about the right hon. Gentleman suggested. Upon country talking so much about this the whole he must say that in common Measure being one which would largely with every person in that House who alleviate agricultural distress, that they took an interest in the agricultural diswere now to be pitied when they found tricts, he viewed this Bill with great disthat, in satisfaction of all their large appointment. He believed that it would expectations, they received a little Bill do absolutely nothing to relieve the like this. If the Bill would not do any present agricultural depression. It harm, certainly it would not do much might afford opportunity to to certain good. A great deal of simplicity appeared speculators to bring out companies and to prevail if it was believed that the take some money from the public, and a Mr. W. E. M. Tomlinson.