(Wales) Bill. Division, with that frank ingenuousness | rescue and support, but not one shilwhich endeared him to his opponents, ling would be given to any community He denied the had let out the true reason for plunder- outside the Church. ing the Church. According to the right deal with this matter on the present moral competence of Parliament to hon. Gentleman, it was not because the restricted franchise. It might fairly property of the Church was national be asked whether this important quesproperty that it was to be taken, but tion, in which women were so gravely because it handicapped the Dissenting interested, ought to be decided simply minister in his competition with the by the votes of men? It could not be Church. The Church taught and he denied that this was a matter in which believed that it was still a doctrine of millions of women were deeply and the Christian religion-that we should vitally interested, and they had no redo to others as we would be done by. presentation in that House by their He commended that principle to the votes. Women had a pre- eminent attention of the Nonconformist gentle- right to a voice in the question. Their men who were now preparing to plunder religious feelings were more intense than the Church. But in believing that if they those of the average elector, and in procould fleece the Church they would be portion to their means they contributed less hampered in the contest Noncon- more than men to Church purposes. Was formists were mistaken, for he was of it not inequitable that this House, repreopinion that the Church would rise to senting only males, should venture to the occasion, that it would not die, but decide a question of this magnitude would rise like a phoenix from its ashes. and solemnity without paying the The Home Secretary, apparently, be- slightest regard either to the feelings lieved that the passage of this Bill or rights of the most important part would bring about the millennium. of the population? The women of this Probably that was about the date the Bill country had had no opportunity of dewould pass at. The right hon. Gentleman claring what they thought of this prowas bringing not peace, but a sword posal. The House had no doubt the into Wales. At present Churchmen power to pass this Bill; but it was subscribed to Nonconformist objects, always restrained by considerations of and lived in amity with their Noncon- equity. It was excellent to have a formist brethren. But the right hon. giant's strength, but it was not always Gentleman could hardly believe that the well to use it like a giant. He should members of a plundered Church would offer the most strenuous opposition to be very ready to hold out the right hand the Bill as an iniquity, and an uncandid of fellowship to those who have attacked iniquity, perpetrated by a small majority and humiliated the Church which they of the half of the community which poscherished. They had heard a good deal sessed electoral power upon the other about the admirable self-denial of the half which had no votes. They were poor members of Welsh chapels, and it asked to plunder unrepresented women, was usually said that the rich in Wales to take money which these women were all on the side of the Church. If regarded as sacred, and to apply it that was the case, it was a bad look-out to secular uses. If they polled the for the Nonconformists, because Church women of England, Scotland, and property, it was said, did not prosper in Wales on this question he was certain the hands of the spoilers; and when the it would be found that the great booty was spent and dissipated, as it soon majority felt the utmost repugnance and would be, the Nonconformist's last state abhorrence of this confiscation, and that would be worse than his first. He would they conceived it to be nothing short of probably before long have to pay an sacrilege. He would not enter on other additional school tax, to supply the grounds of opposition to the Bill. He educational wants at present provided contented himself with stating one point for in Voluntary schools. The pious on which he thought a strong plea could sons of the Church in the day when be founded for at least a pause in these she was robbed of her revenues in destructive and confiscatory proceedings. order to build museums and create The Bill ought not to pass until it had schools of art would nobly come to her been submitted to the country in such a Sir H. S. King.

well, also, as in the interests of religion itself, I am a Liberationist. I would free the Church from State control whether in England, or Scotland, or in Wales; and my opinion of the subject is, no doubt, strengthened by my belief that the appropriation to the service of a single sect benefit of the whole nation is an injustice; and of funds which were originally designed for the I hope to live to see the time when voluntary zeal will provide for religious work, and will set free those vast Endowments, which originally of the condition of the poor, and the education included among their purposes the improvement of the people, as well as the special objects to which they have since been exclusively devoted."

way that a clear, unsophisticated verdict of the people could be taken upon it. No such verdict had as yet been rendered even by the male electors, and the women had not been consulted at all. He thought that in matters of religion involving the morals, the conscience, the piety of these kingdoms they in Parliament ought to be very careful to see that they did not legislate in such a way as to affect the rights and flout the consciences of that immense and powerful social force. If any good was to come out of it they must carry the women with them in that action. He could not see what good even hon. Gentlemen opposite could hope for from an arbitrary injustice perpetrated with an utter disregard of feminine sentiments and opinions throughout the United Kingdom.

In another passage the right hon.
Gentleman said :-

"I know that in England, at all events, history shows that the vast mass of our clergy have always resisted every attempt to extend the limits of freedom, every social and every political reform; while, on the other hand, the ministers of the Dissenting sects have been their warmest and heartiest friends. You cannot find the cause of this in the men; human nature is the same whether it be in an Establishment or outside it; you must find it in the system; it has a narrowing effect, and tends to alienate all its supporters from the national movement. You must look to the same cause for the instances of sectarian bigotry, which, unfortunately, are too common.

MR. A. J. WILLIAMS (Glamorgan, S.) said, he was most anxious to avoid intemperate language, though occasionally speeches on the other side had not been free from it. He believed he could fairly claim that during this long controversy he had never used a harsh or bitter word. He had many personal friends among the clergy and the laity of These were his views about the Estab the Established Church, and he had lished form of religion, and he was glad always endeavoured to respect their to see that the Under Secretary had the feelings in this matter. But he was courage of his convictions when he said bound to claim for his colleagues that that you cannot escape from the logical the hard words had not all been on one consequences of holding that the Estabside, and he had in his hand passages lished form of religion was a mistake. from the sermons and speeches of clergy- If it was good for Ireland, it was also men and members of the Church of the good for Wales, and it was good for most irritating kind. He hoped, how- England if the English people had only ever, that in the House the argument the sense to see it. He had listened would be conducted in a spirit of fair- with sympathy to the exquisite speech ness and kindness. The right hon. of the right hon. Member for Dublin Member for Bristol quoted with great University; for the Welsh Members this emphasis the opinion of an eminent controversy was full of pain, and it was German divine, Dr. Döllinger, that Dis- only under a deep sense of duty that establishment "would be a blow to they were trying to carry out what they Christianity not only in England considered to be the just claims of their but throughout Europe." He thought country. That speech, as well as the it was very unwise that they should speech of the noble Lord the Member for go to Germany for opinions on great Edinburgh, had dealt with the relation questions of principle. He prepared to of the Irish Church to the coming Distake his opinions from Birmingham. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, speaking in 1885 upon the question of principle, said :

"I am an English Nonconformist, born and bred in dissent, and I am opposed, from honest conviction, to anything in the nature of State interference with, or State aid to, religion. For political, as well as for social reasons, as

VOL. XXXII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

establishment of the Church in Wales.
It was said that the Church in Ireland
was very much more liberally treated
than it was proposed to treat the Church
in Wales. No doubt the financial aspect
was a very complex one.
fact stated in 1893 that the representa-
They had the
tive body, which held the property of the
Church and administered it, had in its

I

The correspondent wrote further :

possession between seven and eight subscribed to the Church of Ireland Sustentamillions of money. It was said that tion Fund since the Act of Disestablishment was passed? private munificence had contributed no less than four millions of money, but that was not an endowment of the Church. "During my stay at Armagh I availed The sum of £3, 500,000 now stood as a myself of the opportunity of ascertaining the views of the Venerable Dr. Meade, Archdeacon capitalised sum, which more or less re- of Armagh. 'I do believe,' said the venerable presented Endowments. So, therefore, Archdeacon, that in the history of our Church he urged it would be perfectly unreason- there never was a time when her members took able to say that the Irish Church had a more loving and intelligent interest in her got anything like eight millions. He doctrines and in her well-being. Disestablishment,' said the venerable Archdeacon, in conwas perfectly sure that the Endowments clusion, has brought with it these advantages. of the Irish Church certainly never re- It has drawn us all close together. We now presented £1,500,000. [An hon. MEM- live in a Church which is quick with the Divine life. The very fact of having to work and BER: "Over £7,000,000."] No doubt make sacrifices for the Church has made her they made a good deal over these in- members love her more. The giving of their genious and exceedingly meritorous time and abilities to her support has made financial transactions. The Irish Church them more earnest and zealous in her service.' supplied a good example of what was lay help, the Dean of Armagh said:—- • Our At the Armagh Conference on the question of going to happen to the Welsh Church, select vestries- created by the constitution and he felt happy that it was so. How since the Church was disestablished—' have had Establishment worked in Ireland? brought authorised lay help into every parish, How had the Church suffered there? He happened to represent a Division, in which there was an able and enterprising Tory paper, The Western Mail, the determined opponent of their crusade. It had done everything it could to oppose their movement. It was conducted with great ability and energy; but in 1892, just after the General Election, The Western Mail sent over a special correspondent to Ireland to look about and see what the results of Disestablishment were after many years. This correspondent had resided three years in Ireland before Disestablishment, from 1867 to 1869, and he bore the highest testimony to the great advance made by the Church after Disestablishment. Amongst others of the clergy he saw the Archbishop of Dublin and down to the incumbents in poor country parishes. correspondent wrote as follows:

and I am certain that the average clergyman would deplore the loss of his select vestry as a calamity; that the interest in all good work which our vestries have evoked and utilised is quite incalculable.' The Rev. Canon Crozier, D.D., treasurer of Down Cathedral, chaplain of Holywood, County Down, said: In the ten to the Archbishop of Armagh, and Incumbent years that followed 1860, that is to say, the ten years immediately preceding the coming into effect of the Act of Disestablishment, the total sionary Society were £63,786 68. In the last subscriptions from Ireland to the Church Misten years, with the full burden of self-support upon Irish Churchmen, the subscriptions to the same society reached the splendid total of £79,568 2s. 9d., an increase of £15781 16s. 9d., and all this in spite of or, rather, let me say side by side with-increased zeal at home in spiritual and financial matters, and as enormous increase in church and cathedral restorCanon Crozier, speak volumes, and go further ation. Facts and figures, like those adduced by towards proving that the Church of Ireland has gained, on the whole, more than it has lost The by Disestablishment than a thousand words of assertion based on mere opinion or speculation. Then there was the statement of the Archbishop of Dublin. And certainly it could not be said that Disestablishment of the Church of Ireland had destroyed one of the bulwarks of Christianity."

"No matter what place I stayed at on my journey wherein there was a church I found some evidence as well in the church buildings as in the members of the Church-of renewed life. Whether in a large town like Belfast, with its twenty churches, or in a remote country parish, I could not help remarking the increased activity of the Church as compared with what it was only five-and-twenty years ago. In many places where I remember the churches to have been in a ruinous or halfruinous state in pre-Disestablishment days, I now found them either in a state of good repair or in course of restoration. At Bangor, in County Down, I found a new parish church erected, at a cost of £12,000. But why multiply instances of this kind in face of the fact that over four millions sterling have been Mr. A. J. Williams.

He now came to the concluding sen

tence

"It seems to me quite reasonable to assume that if in a poor country like Ireland Disestablishment has been beneficial, then in Wales the Churchmen have nothing to fear from the effects of a similar Act if applied to the Principality. Judging by the current of popular opinion the days of the Establishment in Wales are numbered, and being numbered, it will be well for the Welsh clergy to learn wisdom from the lessons of the Irish Church, and be prepared for what seems inevitable."

He had thought it to be his duty to that hon. Gentlemen opposite also felt bring these very remarkable statements, deeply on the other side of the question, prepared by a correspondent sent by a and that they were actuated by deep Tory newspaper to report on the effect and conscientious motives. But when to be produced by Disestablishment in they looked from the House of Commons Wales, before the House. It was time to the country and noted the language that this controversy, so full of painful which was used there, especially in Wales, incidents and memories, should come to he thought a different story could be an end. No doubt it had its bright and told. The Baner of April 13, 1892, glorious side. It had stirred to the printed and circulated a statement to depths the emotional and susceptible the effect that Churchmen were big old nature of the Welsh people, and had babes throughout the ages, that they drawn out all their higher and nobler had been carried by others, and had instincts and qualities. It had lifted sucked the breasts to which they had no them to a higher plane, not only of right, that they lived on other people, religious, but of intellectual and political and that it was the greatest pity that life. It had filled them with a passionate those who professed to be the successors desire for knowledge, and had made the of the Apostle should place themselves Welsh peasant, collier, small tradesmen, only to be classed with creatures of and artizan thoughtful and intelligent prey. This was from the organ of students. It had enabled them to realise Mr. Gee, the author of this Liberationthat there was a great future for them, ist "crusade," as the hon. Member called if they only had a fair chance. But it it, and rightly, because this had done its work of training. They ment could not be described were now prepared for that future-and spontaneous expression of the people. would no longer be denied or trifled with. Now Mr. Gee might be made The Welsh people would never lower the Welsh Commissioner under this Bill. banner of religious freedom and equality There was no test to be applied; he which they had carried forward with might be a persona grata with the such desperate tenacity and self-denial Treasury Bench or the Welsh National until they had gained the great moral Party, and he might administer the victory for which they had fought so long.

not

move

as а

a

funds of the Disendowed Church. Mr. Gee had been the Chairman of *MR. A. S. T. GRIFFITH - BOS- the Denbighshire County Council; and CAWEN (Kent, Tunbridge) said, there under this Bill the County Council were one or two points raised in the was to collect the tithe. The County Debate to which he should like to have Council had to hand over what tithe an opportunity of replying. He would it collected for a vested interest to the occupy much time in reply to the Incumbent for the time being of any last speaker. The hon. Member's speech parish. Looking at the animus thus appeared to be a long series of quotations displayed in this extraordinary language from a Tory Commissioner in Ireland; about the Church, he asked what guaranbut he could not see why, because an tee had they that the County Council agent of the Conservative Party found would collect the tithes at all? They defects in the Irish Church, that was were aware that in Cardiganshire, at the any reason why they should Disestablish present moment, the tithes were not coland Disendow the Welsh Church. The lected. The Home Secretary admitted hon. Gentleman complained of the strong that 150 orders for tithes were language used on the Opposition side of cuted in Cardiganshire at the present the House. He did not think it was time. A large number of those orders fair to say that any strong language, any abuse, any personalities had been introduced in the Debate on one side or the other. He thanked the Home Secretary for the tone in which he began the Debate, and other hon. Members for recognising that the opponents of this measure felt deeply with reference to this question. He was also prepared to recognise

unexe

for tithes were not for Church but for
lay tithes; and yet, because the County
Council was in collusion with the Anti-
Tithe League, and would not allow the
police to be got together to collect the
tithe, a large number of laymen were
not able to get their tithes now.
the House think there was the slightest
chance of the County Council collecting

Did

the tithes and handing them over to against Disestablishment, and when the clergymen about whom they had used electors did vote on the Church question. strong language of the character quoted? [Mr.LLOYD-GEORGE: "No."] There might A wonderful change had come over the have been one or two instances in which complexion of the County Councils in the candidates did not do so, but he was Wales during the last few weeks. It certain the hon. Member would admit was quite true that previously hon. that the majority of the candidates in Members opposite had obtained an 1886 did say, distinctly and openly, they enormous majority, and it was true were against Disestablishment, whereas also that at those elections the question in 1892 they did not. In 1886 the put forward was the Disestablishment Unionists polled 2,345 more votes than of the Church. What was the result they polled in 1892, in the constituthis time? In a large number of coun- encies in question-in other words, ties, Conservative majorities had been when this question was put fairly and returned. In Denbighshire, there was squarely before the Welsh people the a Conservative majority, and Mr. Gee Unionists polled more votes than when had been turned off, and Carnarvonshire they burked the question and put it in had elected a Conservative Chairman. the background. It was asked what When this question was really fought was the use of hon. Members on the out in Wales, he believed that the op- Opposition Benches trying to delay the ponents of this measure would be found passing of this Bill? The reason why he to be stronger than the representation of and his friends were determined to fight the House of Commons showed them to the Bill was, that judging from everybe at the present time. They were told thing they saw in Wales--by the manner that there were only three Welsh Mem- in which the people were coming back bers against Disestablishment in the to the Church, and even by so trivial an House. He admitted the fact; but he incident as the County Council elections contended that at the last General Elec--they believed time was on their side. tion the question before the Welsh The Church might have been weak-it electors was not Disestablishment but had been weak-but it was now growing Home Rule. On the First Reading of every day, and its supporters were deterthe Bill he showed that hon. Gentlemen mined to put off this question until the opposite had put forward Home Rule time when the Church was so strong that first, and not Disestablishment, in their Disestablishment would be entirely imelection programmes ; and the hon Mem- possible. [Mr.LLOYD-GEORGE: "When"?] ber for Mid Glamorgan had himself shown Very soon. He thought the hon. Memthat a large number of the Unionist can- ber would see a very marked change at didates were themselves Disestablishers; the next election. The hon. Gentleman then how could the defeat of a Unionist, and his friends were determined to push who, like his opponent, was in favour of the matter forward as quickly as they Disestablishment, or refused to drag out could because they knew time was the question because he wished Home against them, and unless they were able Rule to be before the people, be construed to get Disestablishment and Disednowinto a defeat of the Church in Wales? ment very shortly the opportunity would It was not a defeat, because the question be gone. The Home Secretary had was not before the people at the last given them three local reasons why this election. The hon. Member for Mid Measure should be passed. The first was Glamorgan told him the statistics he that in Wales the Sunday scholars of and others had given were wrong, be- the Nonconformist bodies vastly outcause they had added up the total numbered the Sunday scholars of the Unionist vote and claimed all those Church. The answer to that was that votes for the Church. He willingly admitted that some of the Unionist candidates were in favour of Disestablishment. He was wrong in that particular. What followed? Let them go back to the 1886 election, when the *MR. J. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Unionist candidates, Conservative and Boroughs): Is the hon. Gentleman preLiberal Unionist, all declared themselves pared to tell us where we can obtain the Mr. A. S. T. Griffith-Boscawen.

the Church Sunday scholar was a very different person to the Nonconformist Sunday scholar; there was no comparison between the two. Was it fair then to make a numerical comparison?