too much importance to arguments this persecuting Church, which then coming from such persons when those possessed real ascendency, and it might arguments were intended to show that have been abolished, just as the Star this Measure would be an advantage to Chamber and many other institutions of the Church. As practical men they that time were abolished. There were could dispose of these arguments by two courses open to the Reformers of another consideration. Surely in these that day. One was to abolish the days they could leave people who were Church altogether, and the other was so interested in the maintenance of an exist- to alter its constitution as to take from ing state of things to decide whether it was it every kind of persecuting quality, good or bad for them, and among members and to establish civil and religious of the Church of England and in Wales liberty, side by side with an establishonly a very small minority considered ment. The latter course was taken. that it was to the interest of the Church The present Bill was an anachronism; that it should be Disestablished. They it ought to have been brought in a cenhad had an interesting proof of the tury ago. It then might have been said existence of such persons in the bosom that the continued existence of the Esof the Church that evening. He re-tablishment was inconsistent with reliferred to the eloquent address of the hon. gious liberty, but no one could now point Member for North Beds, every word of to a single instance in which the exiswhose speech went to show that the tence of the Church as an Establishment Church in England ought to be Dis- inflicted any practical injury whatever established as well as the Church in upon either the conscience or the liberty Wales. It was not an argument for of those who did not belong to its this Bill, but for a wider Bill for the Communion. He had heard that Welsh Disestablishment of the whole Church. speakers had recommended DisestablishHe thought, therefore, that they might ment upon the ground that it would put dismiss the idea of Disestablishment for an end to tithe, and the Home Secretary the benefit of the Church itself. The gave a good deal of colour to that statenext argument that had been advanced ment, for he said that the enforcement was that the Church ought to be Dis- of tithe by the machinery and the arm established for the purpose of religious of the law was an incident of a Church equality. He had listened very atten- Establishment. Therefore, presumably, tively to the illustrations given by the if the Church Establishment were deHome Secretary and other Members of stroyed, that incident would pass away. the alleged injury inflicted upon Non- Was that what the right hon. Gentleman conformists by the existence of Church meant? Establishment, and he had failed to gather a single instance of real injury. The existence of the Establishment in no way abridged either the civil or religious liberty of the Nonconformists There was a time when such an argument could have been used with very "As to that which is in Wales, at any rate, great force and effect, for there was a the main source of the revenue of the Church, day when the Church of England, like the tithes, it (the Establishment) means, other religious bodies was a tyrannical gious Endowment possessed by other religious tradistinction to every other form of reliand persecuting institution. When the sects, that, in the last resort, the machinery of spirit of religious liberty first sprang up into operation to enforce it." the law and the arm of the law will be brought in this country, a strong case might have

MR. ASQUITH : I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. I did not say what the right hon. Gentleman has attributed to me, nor do I mean it. SIR J. GORST said, he would quote the right hon. Gentleman's words :--

in con

been made for the Disestablishment of He challenged the right hon. Gentleman

263

National Assemblies and

{COMMONS} Imperial Federation Bill. 264

to say whether it was not a fact, first, clause they could prevent that disunion. that if this Bill were passed tithe would He did not believe that they could make continue to be paid by the persons liable any amendment on Clause 14 which to pay it exactly as it was paid now; would have the effect of allowing Churchsecondly, whether the law, if this Bill men in England and Wales, if they were passed, would not enforce the pay- wished it, to remain in a condition of ment of tithe as it did at present; and, union in which they were now and thirdly, whether the property of all reli- which the vast majority of Churchmen gious bodies was not in the last resort in both countries earnestly and pasenforced by the machinery and the arm, sionately desired. There was a distinct of the law, exactly in the same way that injustice inflicted on the Welsh Church. the collection of tithe was enforced?

MR. ASQUITH said it was enforced, not as a matter of contract, against the will of the person who had claimed.

Debate adjourned till Monday next.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL, &c.

Lords Message (22nd March) relating to the appointment of a Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision Bills,

SIR J. GORST said he would mention a very extraordinary thing which took place in a parish in Essex (Little Maplestead) near which he lived. The tithe was the property of the Seventh-day &c., considered. Baptists. With that tithe they had endowed a chapel only recently removed,

Ordered-That a Select Committee of

(as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of the 22nd March) to consider all Statute Law Revision Bills and Consolidation Bills of the present Session.

and the arm of the law would enforce Six Members be appointed to join with the payment of the tithe. It would the Committee appointed by the Lords place them on the same level with the Church. The tithe was not the property of the Church; it was the property of a Nonconformist body. Therefore he said that the statement of the Home Secretary that this was a peculiarity of the Establishment was wholly incorrect.

MR. ASQUITH said this was the case of impropriated tithe bought and paid for.

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

Committee nominated of Mr. Ambrose, Sir Edward Clarke, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. Howell, the Solicitor General, and Mr. Tomlinson.

SIR. J. GORST said that he should think it was more likely to be the grant from some tithe-owner than that they should have purchased it. His objection was that the Bill was one of pure de-(Mr. Thomas Ellis.) struction. It destroyed the existing organisation of the Church in Wales

Ordered That Three be the quorum.

MANAGEMENT (SAINT

PAUL, DEPTFORD) BILL. Order for Second Reading read and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

without any legitimate excuse, and it METROPOLIS left it to a mere matter of chance whether the Welsh Church would be able to invent a fresh organisation. But what business had that House to impose such a task on the Welsh Church? Why should the Church have to sham all their energies to the perfecting of a new organisation? In one respect NATIONAL ASSEMBLIES AND IMPERIAL ihey were making it absolutely impossible for the people of Wales to do this in the position in which they were now. If there was one thing that Churchmen desired it was that they should remain united, and the effect of their scheme would be to disunite the Church body in Wales from the Church body in England. He did not think that by any

Sir J. Gorst.

FEDERATION BILL.

Order for Second Reading upon Wednesday 15th May read and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

House adjourned at Five minutes after Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, 27th March 1895.

Instruction was practically in Mr. Livesey's own words. On February 13, at the annual meeting of the company, Mr. Livesey explained to the shareholders that he was in favour of the clause, and that he should be glad to see it inserted in the Bill, but he was defeated by a majority of one on the board of directors. He knew it would be a satisfac

The House met at Fifteen minutes tion to Mr. Livesey and several of his after Twelve of the clock.

ΜΟΤΙΟΝ.

PROFIT-SHARING.

MR. A. J. MUNDELLA (Sheffield, Brightside) moved, that it be an Instruction to the Committee on the South Metropolitan Gas Bill that they have power, if they think fit, to insert the following clause:

"Subject to the regulations set forth in the first Schedule to this Act, the directors of the company may, at such times as they deem expedient, prepare a scheme for the purpose of enabling persons in the employ of the company and holding ordinary stock to elect a representative or representatives to take part with the directors in the management of the company, and may submit the scheme to a special general meeting of the company duly called with notice of the business to be considered thereat, and the meeting may adopt the scheme either without alteration or with such alterations (not being inconsistent with the said regulations) as the directors may assent to; and the scheme so adopted shall be submitted for the approval of the Board of Trade, and that Board may consider the same, and may either approve the same without alteration, or may suggest any alterations therein not being inconsistent with the said regulations; and if the directors assent to the alterations (if any) so suggested, the Board of Trade may approve the scheme as altered.

co-directors if the clause was inserted in the Bill. If the system of profit-sharing which Mr. Livesey advocated were adopted he (Mr. Mundella) believed it would have the very best possible results when it came into operation.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. J. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.) suggested that in order to make the instruction more elastic, "insert a clause should be substituted for "insert the following clause."

MR. MUNDELLA gladly adopted the suggestion.

On the amended Motion being put from the Chair,

*SIR M. HICKS-BEACH (Bristol, W.) said, he entirely agreed with the spirit which dictated this proposal. He thought they all felt that it might be very desirable to make some provision, even of a tentative character, for the representation of the workmen on the board of directors; and any company which took the initiative in carrying out such a scheme would deserve well of those who desired to promote good social relations between employers and employed. He was not sure whether the Instruction even now might not fetter the discretion of the Committee. He hoped care would be taken to leave the hands of the Committee free.

The scheme, when approved, shall be published in The London Gazette, and shall, from the date of such publication, have, during the period MR. BRYCE thought the object prescribed in the scheme, full force and effect." aimed at would command approval in He said that this proposal arose out of every part of the House. He thought the Royal Commission on Labour, to there was nothing more desirable than the Report of which was attached an that the principle of profit-sharing should admirable Appendix by Mr. George have a fair chance. As to whether the Livesey, the chairman of the South amended Motion would give sufficient Metropolitan Gas Company, dealing scope to the Committee, perhaps Mr. with this subject. He (Mr. Mundella) Speaker would favour them with his would not move this Instruction if it opinion. imposed any obligation whatever on the gas company. It was not a new departure, because it had already been adopted with great advantage. The VOL. XXXII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

*MR. SPEAKER said, he was not in a better position to express an opinion on the matter than any other Member of the House. He understood the object to K

be aimed at was to give the Committee he now asked whether the Motion was latitude, and, therefore, perhaps, the made by the request of the hon. Member? case would be met by inserting 66 a *MR. SPEAKER said, it was done at clause or clauses." the express request of the hon. Member. The Motion was placed in the hands of the Clerk, and he put it in the ordinary way from the Chair.

MR. MUNDELLA said, that suggestion would give more elasticity. *MR. SPEAKER put the Motion to the House in the form suggested.

*SIR M. HICKS-BEACH suggested that they should leave out of the Instruction all the words after "the management of the company." Then the Instruction would simply be an expression of opinion on the part of the House that the Committee might usefully adopt the principle of the proposal, leaving it to the Committee to carry out the details in whatever way it might be thought desirable. He moved an Amendment to this effect.

MR. BRYCE pointed out that this clause had already been considered by the company, and he was not quite certain that any change in the direction suggestion would carry the same amount of assent; otherwise, he saw no objection.

MR. MUNDELLA agreed that the alteration would afford still greater elasticity to the consideration of the scheme, but the clause had received the assent of a number of the directors and shareholders. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not press the Amendment.

*SIR M. HICKS-BEACH said, in these circumstances he would not press the Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

IRISH LIGHTS BOARD BILL.

MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.), in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said it was not of a political or Party character; it would be correctly described as a purely commercial Bill. The people who desired a change in the constitution of the Irish Lights Board were the commercial classes of Ireland, the traders, merchants, shipping community, and the Chambers of Commerce. They felt that, in the interests of trade, the constitution of the Board ought to be altered. For many years there had been a general demand that a new Board ought to be constructed, which was more in harmony with the advanced condition of commercial affairs at the present time. The present Board consisted of 22 members. were nominated by the Dublin Corporation; the other 17 were a permanent body, their numbers being maintained from year to year by co-option when a member died or resigned. This majority of the

Five of them

Amendment withdrawn, and Instruc- Board was not considered to be a popular tion agreed to.

LONDON MUNICIPALITIES BILL.

or representative body. They were practically an irresponsible body, beyond the reach of public opinion, and impervious to public criticism. The *SIR C. DILKE (Gloucester, Forest of nominees of the Dublin Corporation Dean), on a point of Order with refer- were powerless to effect any change in ence to the Orders of the Day, said that their proceedings; the 17 solid "irrewhat should have been the first Order movables" were always there, and, of the Day-the Bill of the hon. Member having the great majority on the Board, for the Uxbridge Division of Middlesex- they ruled and maintained affairs a had disappeared from the Paper. Hear- cording to their wishes. This Board ing on Monday that the hon. Member had the dispensation of a considerable did not intend to go forward with the amount of money. There had been no Bill, he asked the hon. Member whether change whatever in its constitution, he would move on Wednesday that the except in the name, since it was created Order be discharged. He understood by the Irish Parliament in 1786. The the hon. Gentleman to say he would. only body represented on the Board was The Motion had been made the previous the Dublin Corporation. Belfast, with day (Tuesday) in the usual manner, and its great and increasing trade, had no

Mr. Speaker.

of Londonderry, speaking at the meeting of the Associated Chambers of Commerce at Plymouth, in September, 1893, spoke of the unsuccessful attempts to secure better lighting on the route followed by

representative; neither had Cork, had been asked to second the Bill. He Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Drogheda, did so because he believed that the Wexford, nor Londonderry. The time principle of the Bill was at any rate to had, therefore, come when some serious some extent correct, and because he attempt ought to be made to make a thought the measure made a proper profundamental change in the constitution test against some of the chief features of of the Board. Even the Dublin Cor- the existing system. Yesterday the poration, which had five representatives President of the Board of Trade spoke on the Board, was limited to the selection of the zeal and capacity of the members from members of its own body. It was of the Irish Lights Board. He had no not allowed by Act of Parliament to go personal knowledge of the subject, but to the Chamber of Commerce in Dublin, he was bound to say they had not and to select a suitable person to be a been beyond criticism in respect of some representative, nor to go to the great matters. The expressions of the right shipowners of Dublin and select from hon. Gentleman had been both denied among them a representative. The and doubted. For instance, Mr. Turner, Dublin Corporation was obliged to send as representatives the Lord Mayor and the High Sheriff for the time being, and three Alderman; and, although there might be among the Common Councillors men more suited to act as the trans-Atlantic steamers, and apCommissioners, the Corporation had no pealed to the Associated Chambers power to select them. The Bill, there to help in obtaining better lighting, and fore, proposed to alter the Board with bringing about legislation which would the view of making it more representative, amend the constitution of the Irish and to bring it into accord with the Lights Board. A defence set up by the modern requirements of commercial life. Board was, that they had been greatly The Bill was a very simple one. It hampered by the action, or rather inproposed to constitute a new Board of action of the Board of Trade, and that 19 Members, the Board of Trade to have they had not been able to do as much as power to nominate eight of the number. they would have done because of difliThe other 11 members would be allotted culties placed in their way by the Board thus-two for Dublin, two for Belfast, of Trade and the Treasury. There was a one each for Cork, Limerick, Waterford, singular unanimity of Irish opinion Sligo, Derry, Wexford, and Drogheda. in favour of this Bill. Representations It might not be a perfect Bill. He did had been made both from the north, not know that a perfect Bill was ever south, east, and west, from Belfast, brought into the House, and he was not Londonderry, Cork, Limerick, and even sure that a perfect Bill had ever left the from Dublin, which already had some House. The proposals of the measure representation on the Board, though he might be inadequate and defective, but was told that the representation was not whatever objections there might be to satisfactory, and that, on some points, in them, they could surely be met by addition to those mentioned by the Amendments in Committee. He claimed mover of the Second Reading, the Dublin the sympathetic consideration of the Corporation representatives had not rePresident of the Board of Trade, who ceived quite the treatment they thought admitted yesterday, in answer to themselves entitled to. In pursuance of question put to him, that the present these representations, Memorials had constitution of the Irish Lights Board been presented to the Board of Trade, was a subject that demanded inquiry. and to the Treasury, and so long ago as From that admission they surely might March, 1894, a Memorial was forwarded infer that the right hon. Gentleman from the Associated Chambers of Comwould give his assent to the Second Reading of the Bill.

a

*SIR A. K. ROLLIT (Islington, S.) said, that as this subject had been discussed at meetings of the Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom, he

merce to the Chief Secretary, which set out the strong expressions of opinion to which he had referred, and which also showed that some of the members of the Board were not quite so regular in their attendance as they might be. A reply was