The news which had reached this country were the British Government on the one from the Transvaal was misleading, and side and the Boers on the other; and that unless they received some assistance from what was done between them did not the Government, they were left unjusti- affect the Swazis, and had not been comfiably in the dark. The Under Secretary municated to them, save in the way of seemed to approach this matter from the mere information. But at last the Blue standpoint of giving the Boers security Book was published, and the first thing of tenure in Swaziland, and to think they that appeared on the face of the despatch had got a right to dominate the South was, that Her Majesty's Representative African people. He regarded it entirely went to the Swazis, and in a way that from a different point of view. He had they could and did understand, stated no sympathy whatever with the Boer in- that their independence was guaranteed tervention in Swaziland. During the to them. He defied the Under Secretary last three years the Boer Government to convince any Member of the House had been deliberately legislating against that an expression of that kind could, our country and our countrymen. They under any circumstances, have any other had been passing Act after Act specifi- meaning than the plain meaning on the cally directed against our people, and face of it. It might have been expedient instead of desiring to give them one inch for reasons of policy to disavow that of territory or one farthing of money, he declaration; it was apparently considered would withhold from them everything, very important that it should not become under all circumstances, until they be known, for it was not until the eleventh haved to this country with that courtesy hour that it was published. These and friendship they were entitled to seemed to be strong reasons why the demand from a friendly State. The House should sympathise with what was Boer law, to which he called attention certainly the weaker party in this the other day, as to the possession of matter. He had never expected to hear English silver money was a deliberate a Member of the House claim as a matter insult to this country. It was said that of indulgence the fact that he had been it was not enforced. He could very the representative of an alien and a well believe that if an attempt were hostile power. made to enforce it, it would precipitate the catastrophe which some people be lieved to be pending, and the long-suffering Englishmen in the Transvaal would make very short work of those who attempted to enforce it. They were told the other day, that the access to the franchise in the Transvaal was similar to that of the United States and other great civilised countries. That was promptly contradicted, for indeed there was no country at the time. similarity whatever. In the last three DR. CLARK said, he had a dozen years effort after effort had been made, not times explained his position as Consul secretly but openly, against their country-General for several years of the South men to contract the franchise in order to African Republic. The facts were these. maintain the Boer dominion over them. He was Secretary of the Transvaal IndeThe House had been misled. Up to the pendence Committee when the war began. last moment they were denied access to After the independence of the Transvaal information in regard to one of the most was secured by the Treaty of 1881, he painful incidents in the history of this was Consul General for several years. It South African question-namely, what was an honorary office, because there was actually took place when Sir Evelyn very little work to do, and it was a very Wood's declaration was made. It was poor country. When gold was dissaid over and over again that a declara-covered, there was a good deal of comtion was made guaranteeing the Swazis mercial work, and three or four years their independence. They were told, ago he asked the Boer Government to however, that that was an error. It appoint a paid official. They did so, and was said that the contracting parties a paid official had been here as Consul Mr. H. O. Arnold-Forster.

DR. CLARK: That claim was never made. The statement is absolutely inaccurate.

*MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER said, the hon. Member who had just interrupted him stated that it was true that he had been a representative of the Boer Government, and he was not ashamed of the fact, because he said it was a poor country, and it was at war with this

General for three or four years. When the Boers. He considered it nothing he acted as Secretary of the Independence short of a disgrace that this country, Committee, the father of the present Secre- which pretended to champion the freetary for Scotland and some 60 Members of dom and liberty of oppressed nationaliParliament were members of that Com- ties in every part of the world, should mittee. He occupied that position during betray and desert these people who the war; and for several years afterwards trusted us in their hour of need. he continued the work in the capacity of called upon the Government to say that Consul Geueral. At the time of the they would keep a sharp eye on this war the Transvaal was a British Colony, transaction, and see that the Swazis are so that it could have no representative not unduly oppressed. here.

He

MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER doubted E.) said, he would not enter on the queswhether the statement just made would tion of the relations of the Swazis to the alter the opinion held on the subject by Boers. He had come to the conclusion any Member of the House. He could that, between the British authorities and remember only too well the reports which the Boers, the unfortunate Swazis would reached this country of how our two field be made short work of sooner or later. guns were whitend by the bullets of those He desired to make a brief reply to the whose independence the hon. Member statements made last night by the hon. was endeavouring to secure, and how Member for West Belfast in reference our soldiers were shot down by men to the appointment of Sir Hercules whom the hon. Member, a subject of the Robinson as High Commissioner of the Queen, was doing his best to assist. He Cape. Sir Hercules Robinson, in a letter believed the hon. Member was the only in to-day's Times, had made a complete man in the House who could fail to feel answer to the hon. Member's charge---that sympathy with the Swazis in this matter, he was unable to fulfil the position of or who could have the least desire, unless High Commissioner because he had it was proved to be a political necessity of financial connections in the Colony. the highest importance, that the Trans- The real ground of the hon. Gentleman's vaal should succeed in dominating attack, however, was, that Sir Hercules Swaziland. We had had fair warning. Robinson had shown by his past career, It was reported, and could hardly be not only at the Cape but in other pordenied, that the President of the Trans- tions of the Empire, that he was anxious vaal had declared that if he did not get to conduct the affairs of any Colony with all he wanted from us, the Suzerainty of which he might be connected in unison the Transvaal, he would appeal to the with the feeling of the people there. German Emperor. The House ought to The Member for West Belfast said that be informed whether such a declaration the appointment was not in the interests was made. But whether it was made or of the Empire, but the fact was the apnot those who were in correspondence pointment was almost unanimously with the Transvaal knew that there was approved of by the colonists, English a very strong feeling that that course and Dutch. He thought the hon. was open to the Boer, and that it was Member for West Belfast, who promade much more easy by the action of fessed to speak in the name of Irishthe Government. He wished the Under men, might have left it to someone else Secretary to be more frank, and to tell to make an attack on Sir Hercules the House clearly what was going on in Robinson, who was a distinguished the Transvaal; and especially whether Irishman. Colonists looked with great the Government was, in any event, going interest and attention to the character to use force, to allow any of Her Ma- and antecedents and actions of those jesty's subjects to use force in order to sent out to govern them, and how could compel the Swazi people to submit to the the colonists be expected to receive with worst white Government in the whole of general consideration a Governor who Africa. was attacked before he sailed by a *DR. MACGREGOR (Inverness-shire) Member of that House holding the said, he also wished to make a protest position held by the Member for West against the handing over of this brave Birmingham ? The Member for West

but defenceless people to the rapacity of Belfast might perhaps be excused, for

it was well known that somehow or
other he was always haunted with the
idea since he came into that House that
he was the one man living whose duty it
was to look after the British Empire in
every part of the world.
The hon.
Member admitted that he had never
been to the Cape and he knew nothing
of those distant regions of which he
spoke so glibly. He could assure the!
hon. Member for West Belfast that the
interests of the colonies, if not of the
Empire at large, got on tolerably well
before he came into that House.

asserted that the South African Republic in its foreign relations was within the sphere of British influence, and would not be allowed to make any new treaty or arrangement with any foreign State except subject to the consent of Her Majesty's Government. This Government would take care always to control the foreign relations of the Transvaal.

SIR E. ASHMEAD - BARTLETT (Sheffield, Ecclesall): Did you communicate that statement formally to the Transvaal Government?

Mr. BUXTON said, they had not MR. SYDNEY BUXTON said, with done so. It was not for them to do so regard to the points raised by the hon. unless the question arose whether the Gentleman opposite as to the appoint- Transvaal had committed any breach of ment of Sir Hercules Robinson, they the convention. Of course the Transhad discussed it last night at considerable vaal Government knew what was said in length, and he would only add that, as Parliament with regard to them, and regarded the remarks of the Member for they had received warning, if warning West Belfast as to Sir Hercules Robin- were required, in the most emphatic son's financial operations in South Africa, terms. Finally, he was asked for inhe had given, in addition to the letter formation as to the present position in in The Times that morning, a categorical Swaziland, which he should deal with withdenial of the insinuations and accusa- out touching the history of the matter. tions of the hon. Member. That denial He did not understand what the hon. was given in a personal interview that Member meant by the reference to the morning. With regard to the question organic proclamation. The position was of Swaziland, he did not want to go this : --It was created under the Conveninto its history. Therefore he passed by tion of 1893. It was a document which the question of the independence of it was open to the Swazis to sign or not. Swaziland, which had recently been They had declined to sign, and the prodiscussed on more than one occasion. clammation disappeared of its Own He also declined to go into the question accord. The administration of Swaziof the action of the Transvaal Govern- land came under the fresh Convention of ment with regard to British subjects. 1894, with the distinct reservation of He had always thought that some of tribal independence which he had more the laws of the South African Republic than once pointed out. Then with rewere very inexpedient indeed. The gard to the action of the Transvaal Govposition of the Government was this- ernment as to the mobilisation of the that unless exceptional and adverse forces on the borders when their Comtreatment had been shown to British missioners were going in to meet the subjects they were not entitled to inter- Chiefs, they were justified in doing so. fere, nor would it be expedient. With The question was whether there might regard to the foreign relations of the not have been a rising, as there was a conTransvaal and the speech of President siderable amount of distrust at the time. Kruger, he was not sorry to have that The Transvaal Government would not opportunity of referring to the matter, be justified in sending an armed force and, as he had said before with regard into Swaziland when the Commission to that speech, it was perfectly im- was sitting. He was thankful the material to the British Government Swazis had not been led away by illwhat President Kruger may or may not advised counsellors, but had come to have said on the occasion. The tele- the conclusion that they would be able graphic summary was not exactly in to meet the Boers in a peaceful way. accordance with what he did say. They The information of the Government was adhered, as previous Governments had that they had come to a meeting in a adhered, to the clause of the London peaceful way, and that the administra Convention of 1884, in which it was tion of Swaziland was practically now Mr. William Redmond.

In 1816, the school had

in the hands of the Boers under peace- of England. ful conditions and with the assent of the got into a condition of some disorder, Swazis. He hoped that position would and a petition was presented to the be maintained, because whatever opinions Master of the Rolls. Under the hon. Members might hold, they could authority of the Master of the Rolls a not wish that there should be actual scheme was drawn up which confirmed the fighting between the Boers and the absolute Church character of the FoundaSwazis. That could only have one tion. It was used as a charity school for result, and it was for the interests of all teaching and instructing children in the parties that there should be no hostile principles and the doctrines of the movement. He hoped the Swazis would Church of England, and the children be ready to submit to the administra- were required to attend church on Suntion of the law with the reservations the days and "other usual days" for Divine Government had made for them and to Service, unless their parents objected. the guarantees which the Government The trustees included the Vicar of fully intended to carry out. This was a the parish, and they were to appoint logical conclusion to the action taken for such masters as were members of the many years past in regard to the three Church of England, "of sober life and countries (Swaziland, the Transvaal, and conversation." All the documents he England), and it had come to this that had consulted showed this Foundation Swaziland would now practically be administered by the Boers, but they had reserved for the Swazis all the rights that they had not parted with.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT Is there any official statement or evidence to show that the Swazis have admitted, or put themselves under, the actual administration of the Boers?

[There was no answer.]

to have possessed a distinctively Church character, and yet the recent scheme of the Charity Commissioners proposed to alter the Church character of the school entirely.

*THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Mr. A. H. D. ACLAND, York, W. R., Rotherham) said, the hon. Gentleman could not hold him responsible for the character of the scheme. The scheme came from the Charity Commissioners, and during the THE BERRIEW EDUCATION SCHEME. time it was in the Education Depart*MR. J. G. TALBOT (Oxford Univer- ment his attention was not called to the sity) moved a reduction of £500 in the subject by any objections; and he salary of the Vice President of the passed it on in the ordinary course. Council (Mr. Acland), in order to call He did not receive any objection to it; attention to a very grave departure and, therefore, he had none to answer. from the ordinary practice of the Educa- *MR. TALBOT said, it was a scheme tion Department. The matter to which about which Churchmen felt very he referred was connected with the strongly, because under it the Vicar of scheme prepared by the Charity Com- the Parish, who had always hitherto missioners under the Welsh Inter- been a Trustee, was forbidden to give mediate Education Act for a school in religious instruction. A Petition against the parish of Berriew in the county of the scheme was presented on September Montgomery. The School was founded 14 of last year, signed by the statutory in 1652 by Humphry Jones. In order number of ratepayers. On November 23 to show the Church character impressed a letter was read from the Education on that school when it was founded he Department stating that 12 out of stated that the founder conveyed lands the twenty signatories had withdrawn and other property to trustees, among their signatures before the statutory whom were two clergymen of the Church two months had expired. A letter had of England, and it was important to been sent to the Department pointing observe the date at which this was done. out that there was no provision in the It was in 1652, and the two clergymen Act for the withdrawal of such signain question were Vicars deprived by the tures. The scheme was, in consequence, Commonwealth. In 1738, a clergyman not laid on the Table of the House. In was a master, and the children were in- his judgment, the Education Department structed in the principles of the Church had acted ultra vires in this matter.

But supposing the Department had the presented because the signatures had been power to allow the withdrawal of the withdrawn. There was not the slightest signatures, he contended that they suggestion anywhere in the Act of Parshould have given notice to those who liament that a Petition should be withsigned the Petition, in order that an drawn, still less that signatures should opportunity might have been afforded to be withdrawn. That was, in some shape others to substitute their names for or form, the action of the Education those who had withdrawn. A com- Department, without the consent of the plaint had reached him to the effect that right hon. Gentleman, under a complete those who signed this Petition, and then misapprehension of what the law was. withdrew their names, did so because The fact was, that those who had had they were told something which was not bona fide objections to raise could not in accordance with the facts of the case. get them raised. With regard to this They said that the signatures had been particular case, it appeared, on the eviwithdrawn because a threat had been dence before them, that individual made to the effect that if the Petition signatories were visited and different succeeded the Endowments would be reasons given them why they should not

taken away from the parish and a oppose the scheme. The persons who School Board would follow. No such had, bona fide, obtained a Petition to be result could have possibly followed, and if presented had no means of knowing the people were so informed it was an what was being done. The result of unwarrantable use of an improper such action was, that the House lost for argument. ever any chance of having the scheme investigated. When a question was put to the right hon. Gentleman, the other day, he said the Department had acted in accordance with the course taken by a previous Government in the Dauncy case.

SIR R. E. WEBSTER (Isle of Wight) said that this question was of some constitutional importance. It was important that the House should know that the sanction of these schemes depended on an Order in Council, and when that Order had been made its effect and result could not be questioned in a Court of law. It was, in his opinion, clear that what had been done in this case was never intended should take place. The 15th Section of the Act of 1873 was distinct in stating that-

"If any Petition has been presented the scheme shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament; "

That case, he was sure, never came before the Law Officers. They did not charge the right hon. Gentleman himself with any dereliction of duty, but they protested against being deprived of the opportunity of discussing this scheme. If his hon. Friend was right as to the history of the Charity, and no doubt he was right, it was plain it was a case in which Parliament would have interfered. Whatever might be the excuse which the right hon. Gentleman might be able to give for the conduct of the Department in this case he hoped the protest to-day would make it impossible for anything of the kind to occur in the future.

the procedure following the usual course when Parliament was not sitting. He asked the House to observe what a door was opened to possible collusive or improper action if any departure from established practice were sanctioned. The only protection the opponents had *MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montwas the protection of petition; through gomeryshire) felt bound to intervene in a Petition they could present to the the Debate in consequence of some House any objections they had to a remarks which fell from the hon. scheme. They were informed, rightly Member for the Oxford University or wrongly, of what happened in this (Mr. Talbot). The question of the case. Let them consider, however, what Church character of the foundation was might happen. A Petition might be decided in the negative by the Charity presented by influential people; they Commissioners after a very full inquirymight believe the matter was going to an inquiry which lasted a long period, be discussed--but behind their backs, during which, if he rightly understood they knowing nothing about it; the the procedure, everything which could Department informed Her Majesty in possibly be brought forward was adCouncil that no Petition had been vanced before the Commissioners. The Mr. Talbot.