tected by applying these Endowments in securing for the children belonging to them education in County Intermediate Schools; and they invite suggestions and information from the trustees or managers and all interested in the Endowments which may facilitate the task of preparing a schemes or scheme for this purpose."

In September 1892 a meeting was held with the Berriew Trustees, by the Joint Committee, of which meeting the minute was as follows:

gift was simply and purely for a free school, without any declaration that it should be of a Church character. He must add, that the proceedings which culminated in the Chancery suit were material. They showed that the school had ceased to exist. If it was a Church school, which was entirely denied, a greater disgrace to the Church could not possibly be conceived. The funds were in the hands of a sole trustee, from whom they were with difficulty recovered, the school-house was in ruins, the scholars were non-existent, and the master was a man of bad character. Under those circumstances--and only under those circumstances was the Chancery scheme passed. Lord Liverpool was Premier and Lord Eldon was Lord Chancellor, and, The scheme included the clause to naturally, clauses were put in insisting which hon. Members opposite took on Church of England instruction. such exception, the one which required The point he wished to insist upon was, that the religious instruction should be that the insertion of those clauses was given by members of the teaching staff a usurpation; not a confirmation of only. That was a clause which was an existing Church character of the inserted in all Welsh schemes. school. As regarded the scheme itself single official objection was taken to he was afraid he must ask the indul- the scheme. There was some private

"After full discussion the Berriew Trustees stated their willingness to concur in the Establishment of a scheme under the Welsh Act for the administration of the Endowment; such scheme to provide for the maintenance of an Upper Department in the Public Elementary School."

Not a

The hon.

gence of the House while he went a discussion, no doubt, but not a single little into the educational policy of objection was taken officially to any of which the scheme was part-the scheme the provisions of the scheme, either being only one of a group of schemes. before the Charity Commission or before When it became the duty of the Mont- the Education Department. gomeryshire Joint Educational Com- Member for the Oxford University spoke mittee to set the Intermediate Education of the withdrawal of signatures being Act in motion they naturally considered obtained by misrepresentation. the question of the existing Endowments *MR. TALBOT said he did not intend in the different parishes. Amongst them to use those words; what he meant to was the Endowment at Berriew. The say was that the signatures would not Committee reported :

"It will be noticed that the Proposals for the County Scheme deal only with the funds arising from the County Rate and Government Grants, and do not include any of the Educational Endowments of the county. The Committee believe that, with the exception of Deythur, all of these Endowments are at present employed in the support of public elementary schools. Inasmuch as the provision of Elementary Education is now a legal obligation on the owners and occupiers of property, and as in the coming Session large additional grants will probably be made for it at the public charge, the Committee suggest that advantage should be taken of the extension to them made by the Welsh Intermediate Education Act of the powers now vested in the Charity Commissioners and the Education Department, to re-organise these Endowments, and at the same time to secure them for the parishes to which they were originally given." Then they went on to say,

"The Committee are of opinion that the interests of the parishes will be effectually pro

have been withdrawn but for certain representations made to the signatories.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN understood the hon. Gentleman to go further than that, and to speak of improper influences.

*MR. TALBOT said he stated that improper arguments were addressed to the signatories, and that if the case had been properly put before the people an entirely different impression would have been left on their minds. It was in consequence of improper arguments that the signatures were withdrawn.

*MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN said that, with regard to the fallacious arguments, he might say that the Endowment consisted of a sum which was in consequence of agricultural depression a little over £70 a year. The County Council gave an additional grant of £73a year on the condition

The

that an Upper Department was estab-signatures to be withdrawn. There was lished in the School. This was in pur- no intention, of course, on the part of suance of the general policy of the Joint the Education Department to do any Education Committee to diffuse Sewrong in the matter. But it was becondary Education as widely as possible lieved that it was a very old tradition among the people of the country. The argument which was used to secure held by the Department that if those the withdrawal of the signatures from who signed petitions asked to have their the petition was that the additional signatures withdrawn, their request grant made to the foundation by the should be complied with. The hon. County Council was given on the and learned Member for the Isle of condition and could only be given on Wight referred to the precedent of the the condition that the School was of Dauntrey Charity. The facts of that case an undenominational and not of a were these: The first Dauntrey Scheme denominational kind, and that the was rejected in the House of Lords, endowment, if not used for the support because as he was given to understand, of the School, would be applied for schol- there was no time to debate in the House arships in other Schools. He was told of Commons. The second Dauntrey at first hand by one who signed the peti- Scheme was believed to be a scheme tion that he would not have put his name agreed upon by nearly all the parties inteto it had he not been led to understand rested; but a petition was lodged against it that the passing of the Scheme would in- at the Educational Office, at the instance, volve the parish in a very heavy expense, as he was informed, of the hon. Member and it was on being assured that such for Walworth (Mr. Saunders). It was was not the case-that on the contrary, pointed out to the hon. Member that it would mean the grant to the parish of a his petition was partly based upon a sum very nearly the amount of the misunderstanding; and shortly afterendowment that this particular gen- wards a request was sent him by a large tleman withdrew his name from the number of the signatories asking that the petition. The grounds, therefore, on petition should be withdrawn. which he supported the Scheme, were petition, therefore, in that case, which that the endowment was not a Church would otherwise have laid the scheme, endowment, and that the Scheme was before Parliament, was withdrawn. It one that would be most beneficial to mattered very little from the legal point the parish, and the withdrawing of signa- of view whether the reasons for which tures from the petition only expressed the petitioners made their objection were the general feeling existing in the parish adequate or not. He understood they as to what was right and fair on the were all agreed that in no future subject. Corporation or Governing body, a body *MR. ACLAND said, there was no of petitioning ratepayers, should not be doubt that the question raised by the allowed to withdraw any petition to lay hon. Member for Oxford University was a scheme before Parliament, even though really of serious importance. The Berriew they discover that they had made a Scheme in due course reached the Educa- mistake in presenting the petition. If tion Department. Not a single objection they had made a mistake, the mistake was made to it while it was in the must be explained within the walls of Department. If those who had got up Parliament and nowhere else; and that in the petition against the scheme at a any case Parliament should have the subsequent stage had made any objection opportunity of discussing the scheme. to it while it was in the Education But the Berriew Scheme had now become Department he should have investigated law and, therefore, the second question he the matter. However, he had submitted had submitted to the Law Officers was two questions in regard to the Scheme whether there was any means for bringto the Law Officers. The first was ing a scheme which had passed again whether, when a petition had been before Parliament. The Law Officers lodged, signatures to it could be after- had asked for some little time for further wards withdrawn. To that question the consideration before they answered that Law Officers had replied in the negative. question. He could only say that if he The great mistake was in allowing the could devise any reasonable means, even Mr. Humphreys-Owen.

by an Act of Parliament itself, by which this Berriew Scheme could be brought

before Parliament for such discussion as it ought to have received, he should be very glad to adopt that means.

Amendment by leave withdrawn,

"At a time when they were doing their very best to improve the status of Civil Servants it would be an unfortunate course to adopt a new departure from that sound principle, and in practice have to say to men who had nearly reached the top of the tree: No matter how long your service or how great your efficiency, you will not be promoted to the headship of your department, but we will take a junior clerk, or another officer, and put him in.""

because

even in the

MR. G. C.T. BARTLEY (Islington, N.) called attention to the appointment of In that case there was a junior clerk Mr. Sadler as Director of Special In- put in; but this case was worse, quiries and Reports to the Education this gentleman was not Department, a new office which had public service, and yet he was put over been created by the Vice-President of the heads of all the officers. He was the Council. There was a salary of £650 not going to say one word against Mr. rising to £800 a year attached to the Sadler personally, but what he condemned office, and, therefore, it was one of the best appointments in the Education Department. On inquiring what were the duties of this newly created official, he had been informed by the Vice-President that they were to collect and report on such information on educational matters

was the practice which had been adopted in this instance of bringing in a complete outsider and passing him over the heads of men who had spent twenty, thirty, and forty years in the public service. This was not the only case, for last year he had to call attention to another

instance, whilst one of his hon. Friends intended to call attention to the promotion of a Mr. Levy over other officials of long service.

MR. ACLAND: Mr. Levy is not outside the office.

If time had

MR. BARTLEY acknowledged that Mr. Sadler's case was the worst, for he had been taken from outside the public service and passed over the heads of a great many deserving men. permitted he would have gone into the question of whether this appointment was really needed. The other day the Member for South Manchester asked the right hon. gentleman whether he was

aware

at home and abroad as the Department was constantly in need of. He wrs not going to say one word against Mr. Sadler, but he asked, in the interest of the public service, whether it was right or fair that the 93 Inspectors, the 51 Sub-Inspectors, the 162 Assistant Inspectors, and the whole staff of the Department, numbering nearly 500 officers, should have been passed over, and a young man, who had never been in any branch of the public service, brought in and placed in this good position at a salary about the seventeenth largest in the Department. He knew an Inspector, who lately retired, who had been for forty years in the Service, and it was only recently that the appointment of Mr. he got Sadler had not received the general a salary of £600 a year. This gentleman was retired after forty approval of those interested in educayears' service, his maximum salary having tional questions. been £600; and now he saw a young man, a little over thirty, appointed at a higher words he used, and that is an exactly salary than he himself was able to opposite interpretation. What he asked receive after forty years' good work in me was whether it was not the fact that the public service. What was the the appointment had been received with effect of this on the public service universal approval. generally? There was a debate in that House in 1877 on a celebrated appointment to the Stationery Office, and they had wonderful speeches from Mr. Childers and the right hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella), who until recently occupied the position of President of the Board of Trade, in which they laid down the law most emphatically. Upon that occasion Mr. Childers said

MR. ACLAND: Those were not the

MR. BARTLEY said he would read

what passed from "Hansard” :—

"Sir HENRY ROSCOE: May I ask the right hon. gentleman whether he is aware that the appointment of Mr. Sadler does not receive general approval from those interested in educational questions?

That was the statement which appeared, not only in "Hansard," but in every newspaper which reported the matter.

He

contended that there was no necessity that sort. It was important in the for making this appointment. The work interest of the public service to teach of collecting these reports and so forth those who had been induced to enter was already done by the Education that service by the competitive system, Department, and if there was anything that worth and merit would not be passed further to be done there were scores of over; but they would absolutely do away officials who could efficiently do it. with the esprit de corps and energy of the Again, all the officers of the Education public service if young men were to be Department, from the inspectors down- taken from the outside, and passed over wards, had to submit to a competitive the heads of men who had given the best examination, and, commencing at a years of their life to the service of the low salary, had gradually to work State. As a protest against the course themselves into a better position. Mr. that had been adopted in this matter he Sadler, however, commenced at the top, should move to reduce the Vote by £650. he had had no experience in the work No doubt the right hon. Gentleman like these other officers had, but they would be able to carry the Vote, but he were told he had acted as secretary to would be making a precedent which the University Extension Society, and some day would be seriously used against was a student of Christ Church. These him, and hon. Gentlemen opposite who no doubt were very important offices, supported the Vote would find they were but there were men connected with the undermining the whole of the public Education Department who had taken service by this system of importing a keen interest in the work of education, persons from the outside. Now that they who had done much without fee or had the competitive system of entering reward for the extension of University the public service these special appointteaching, and he said they were perfectly ments should be reduced to a minimum. competent to carry out the work which Of course he recognised that it was someMr. Sadler had been appointed for. If times necessary to import an outsider in the appointment was needed, and Mr. the case of an appointment of a technical Sadler was most competent, still there character. But this was not a technical was no justification for appointing him, appointment, and there were at least unless he was the only man who could fifty men in the Department who could possibly discharge these duties. He fill it equally as well as Mr. Sadler. challenged the right hon. Gentleman to get They ought to strive to maintain the up in his place and say that there was no other person in the Education Department competent to do the work, for he must know there were many men who were not receiving nearly as much as it was proposed to give Mr. Sadler, but who were thoroughly competent to fill this office. When they found that this was an entirely new office that had been created, that the gentleman who had been selected to fill it was a supporter of the Government, and that he had been picked out from outside the public service, it naturally made people suspicious. The right hon. Gentleman would probably say that it was a great loss to Mr. Sadler to take this appointment. If so, it was a pity he took it; there were a great many men in the Education Department who would be glad of it, and he himself was very sus picious of gentlemen who sacrificed themselves for a good appointment of Mr. Bartley.

stability of their public service by preventing that service being endangered by political intrigues, or by any jobbery which might creep in. He did not say that this was a case of political jobbery, but if it was not it had the look of it, and it was for the right hon. Gentleman to prove that it was not. He begged to move the reduction of the vote by £650, and intimated that he should press the amendment to a division.

SIR R. TEMPLE (Surrey, Kingston), formally seconded the Amendment.

*SIR J. MOWBRAY (Oxford University) desired, before the right hon. Gentleman replied, to say a few words on behalf of the individual whose name had been mentioned, and by whose appointment it seemed to be considered a job had been perpetrated. Mr. Sadler had never been a political supporter of his and was never likely to be. How far political views had influenced his appoint

ment he knew not, but he wished to say he was now placed. The hon. Member this of one he had known for many years. had said that there was a great flavour Mr. Sadler's career at the University had of jobbery about this appointment. He been a most distinguished and successful had said that Mr. Sadler-and he was one, and his qualifications for the post to grateful to the right hon. Member for the which he had been appointed were rare. University of Oxford and the hon. As an Undergraduate at Trinity he had Member for the Cambridge University taken the highest honours in Moderations for bearing testimony to that gentleman's and Final Classical School. He had distinguished character and recordthen been elected a student of Christ was a supporter of the Government, but Church, and had rendered valuable service as Mr. Sadler's educational qualifications to that great House for many years. He had been spoken to by opponents of the had long been Secretary to the Delegates present Government he need no go into for University Extension. By his that. The hon. Member asked whether it writing, his speeches, and his personal was a fact that Mr. Sadler was appointed intercourse, he had, in a remarkable a bursar of Christ Church-[Mr. SWIFT way stimulated and promoted that MACNEILL: "Christ Church 'College""]important movement. Everybody who in succession to him. He could not conhad the pleasure of his acquaintance ceive what bearing it had on the matter knew him to be a man of high abilities, that Mr. Sadler was appointed by the genial temperment, and great activity governing body of Christ Church in bringing University teaching into a bursar of Christ Church when connexion with the masses of the people. he ceased to act ten years ago. He felt that the Department was to be the question meant anything, congratulated on having acquired the seemed to imply some insinuation against services of a man of such special qualifi- himself. The hon. Member mentioned cations for the post to which Mr. Sadler the case of Mr. Levy, who had received had been appointed. a small addition to his salary of £100.

If

it

MR. JEBB (Cambridge University) Would it be believed that one Member said that as one who was associated with of the House of Commons more than Mr. Sadler on the Commission of Second-once addressed him on the question of ary Education he felt it would be a mat-promotion for some of the senior clerks in ter of fairness to bear testimony this the office, that he received petitions from peculiar fitness for the post. Mr. Sadler two or three of these gentlemen, of had devoted long and thorough study to whom Mr. Levy was one, and, conthe principles and methods of education sidering the great skill which he had in as understood in this country and in a particular direction in connection with other countries also. The treatment of the school accounts and registers, he, education as a science was a movement with the sanction and approval pracof comparitively recent origin. It had tically of the Head of the Department, a large and growing literature of its own. gave Mr. Levy £100 more, and in doing In that science Mr. Sadler was a spec- so he was trying to meet what he was ialist, and an eminent specialist. The asked to do by an hon. Member opposite. promotion he had received was not to an He was asked-Did he know that office of the ordinary kind at the Educa- Mr. Levy was а Member of the tion Department, but a special office for National Liberal Club? Supposing when which he had special attainments, and he was a private Member he had asked he believed the right hon. Gentleman about Mr. Milner, an old friend, the dishad been thoroughly happy in his choice tinguished Head of the Inland Revenue, without implying the slightest disparage- whether he was a Member of a ment to be distinguished men who form Unionist Club and whether he had been the ordinary staff of the Education Secretary to the late Chancellor of the Department. Exchequer, and why that man had been *Mr. ACLAND said the hon. Mem-appointed Head of the Inland Revenue? ber for Islington had persisted in saying He should have deserved and should that he had only raised one question. have received the scorn and indignation He demurred to that, because more than of the general body of Conservative one question had been raised in connexion Members. And so far as belonging to with the distinguished office over which a Club went, he supposed the great bulk VOL. XXXII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

T