HOUSE OF LORDS. Tuesday, 2nd April 1895. CYPRUS. Return respecting the Revenues of the Island of Cyprus laid before the House (pursuant to Order of the 15th of March last), and to be printed.—[No. 55.] ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVI- A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act 1870, to enable the School Board for Manchester to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts. [No. 58.] A Bill to confirm a l'rovisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act 1870, to enable the School Board for Liverpool to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts. [No. 59.] A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act 1870, to enable the School Board for Lowestoft to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts. [No. 60.] The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bills to be printed as amended. SOLICITORS (IRELAND) BILL.--[H.L.] Reported from the Standing Com- LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PRO- Read 2 (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next. LORD'S DAY ACT. Moved, That a Select Committee be it is expedient to make in the Lord's appointed to consider what amendments Day Act (21 Geo. III. c. 49).—(Viscount Cross) : Agreed to. PALESTINE EXPLORATION. VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH—in rising to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what restrictions had been laid by the Turkish Government on British subjects travelling in Palestine and Syria; and whether any correspondence on the subject could be laid before Parliament said: Some time ago it came to my notice that certain restrictions had been placed on travellers in Asia Minor. The subject is of some interest, because, as the House is aware, very important explorations have been going on for years, and have now reached a point when, speaking as a member of the Palestine Exploration Fund, I may say that we hope we are on the eve of still more important discoveries. This can hardly be regarded as a private enterprise, because some of the most distinguished savants in France and Germany have been engaged in the work, and our own Government have given at different times the services of such eminent men as Sir Charles Warren, Sir C. Wilson, EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL.- and the late General Gordon. I will A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act 1870, to enable the School Board for Pwllheli to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts. [No. 61.] GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) (No. 2.) BILL. Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment: The Report of Amendments made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Thursday next. [H.L.]-[No. 62.] AND EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES (No. 2.) BILL.-[H.L.]-No. 63.] Reported from the 'Standing Com conclude by asking the noble Earl whether mittee with an Amendment to each Bill: of KIMBERLEY): Early in February the Porte issued orders to the Govern- complaint with regard to this company ment in Beyrout that travelling pass- by the Board of Trade, either with reports should not be granted to foreigners gard to the Railway Servants' Hours without authority, but when the incon- Bill or the Traffic Acts of 1888 and 1894. venience that would be caused by those No answer being given, regulations was pointed out the orders were at once withdrawn. That being the case, it seems to me that it will not be necessary to produce any correspondence, which, in fact, consists, only of one or two short telegrams. VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: The exploration can go on as it did before? THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am not able to say. The explorations were not mentioned in the question upon the Paper, so I have not armed myself with information on that point. But as regards the permission to travel, matters remain in exactly the same position as before. CHITRAL. VISCOUNT CROSS: I should like to ask whether any further information has been received by the Government from Chitral? *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord REAY): The only information which has reached us is that Colonel Kelly had reached Pingal on March 28th. House adjourned at a Quarter HOUSE OF COMMONS, MR. DODD, rising again, said: As there is no one here to answer, I object. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member has already spoken. Bill ordered for 3o. GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. On the Order for the consideration of the Great Eastern Railway Bill, MR. DODD objected. MR. SPEAKER: That cannot be done The Bill is by order. *MR. J. A. M. MACDONALD (Tower Hamlets, Bow) who had given notice to move that the Bill be considered that day six months, complained strongly of a speech made by Lord Claud Hamilton, the Chairman of the Company, at the half-yearly meeting. He urged that, as the company had refused to co-operate loyally with the Board of Trade in giving effect to regulations laid down by Parliament, the House should not consent to give the company sanction to any further extension of its powers. He moved the rejection of the Bill. 66 MR. ARCHIBALD GROVE (West Ham, N.) seconded the Motion, and said that in dismissing 400 men from the employment of the company Lord Claud Hamilton said that someone must suffer" for the legislation which had taken place. The action of the company, he argued, deserved the reprobation of the House. He instanced the case of an engine-driver who, after 22 years' service and with an irreproachable character, had been dismissed because he had been The House met shortly after Three of the spokesman of his mates. Shortly Tuesday, 2nd April 1895. the clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN On the Motion for the consideration of this Bill, MR. CYRIL DODD (Essex, Maldon) inquired whether there was any special Earl of Kimberley. after he called the attention of the Board of Directors to a gross instance of fraudulent returns of hours of labour connived at by one of the local superintendents. One would have thought that the action of the Board of Directors would have been to have punished the superintendent who connived at this fraudulent return. MR. T. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis), on a point of order, asked whether it was in order for the hon. Member to call attention to these matters on the Bill now before the a large body of the men in whom the House. MR. SPEAKER: I should have thought it my duty to stop the hon. Gentleman had it not been for the remarks of the Chairman of the Company. I think that does give a reason for the course taken. But I think the particulars into which the hon. Member is now entering are outside the Bill, and are not relative to the immediate issue. There is nothing in the Bill with reference to the hours of labour, and I do not think the hon. Member can cite particular instances as a reason for punishing a company when they come to this House to ask for further powers. hon. Members were interested, namely, the railway servants, because it provided for an extension of the pension scheme. He would ask them if, after expressing their opinion on the subject of the Chairman's speech, they might not think it compatible with their duty to withdraw their opposition. They had heard that the relationships between the Great Eastern and the Board of Trade had been of the most friendly character, and also that their treatment of their servants was in every way praiseworthy, and that being so, he would like to ask the hon. Members if they did not think it would be looking a little too far forward to prophesy as to what the future relationships between the Company and their servants might be. He felt so certain Eastern must and would depend so largely upon the friendly relations between the Company and the men, that he could not think for one moment they would go behind the back of the law and do anything prejudicial to the interests of their employés. MR. GROVE said he would merely say that in this particular instance the man who violated the regulation of the Board of Trade was allowed to remain himself that the future of the Great in his employment, and he believed that if a great Company sanctioned such conduct as that, it would convert the measures which that House passed into waste paper. He felt that the Great Eastern Railway Company, as a rule, behaved well to their employés, and that the foremen and the management set an admirable example to most of the Railway Companies throughout the country, but it was here, he feared, the spirit shown in Lord Claud Hamilton's speech might develop, and do harm, not only to the Company, but also to the public and the men in their employ, that he seconded the motion of his hon. Friend. of a painful nature. He read those remarks, and he thought they were not necessary. He thought they did not tend to make easier the duties of those who had had cast upon them by Parliament the very difficult function of endeavouring to apply an Act which was THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.) said, he did not feel altogether surprised that the remarks made by the Chairman of the Great Eastern Railway Company had given rise to a Debate. At the same time he very much regretted it, for it imported into the consideration of this Bill what ought COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, to be considered only upon its own Epping) said, that as one who had not merits, an element which was, no doubt, the smallest pecuniary interest in the of a controversial and, to some extent, Great Eastern, but as one whose constituents were deeply affected by the line and the future prospects of the line proposed by this Bill, he hoped the hon. Member would not persist in his motion. He could quite understand the honourable motives which had led both the mover and the seconder to bring this in the interests not only of railway serquestion before the House. It affected, vants but also of the whole travelling he had no doubt, men in whom they public, upon a subject which was espewere most deeply and honourably inter- cially difficult. It would be possible, by ested, but he should like to point out hasty, precipitate, or over-zealous adthat there was also a larger proportion ministration to injure the railway serof the population who were still more vants themselves, and, at the same time, interested in the passing of this Bill. to embitter the relations, which ought to The Bill related principally to a branch be cordial, between the Railway Comrailway in a district which at the present pany and the Board of Trade. They did moment was in great need of railway their best to administer the Act in the accommodation, and it, moreover, affected spirit in which Parliament passed it, and in which they thought it ought to be MR. BRYCE said he did not at all administered. They did their best to subscribe to the doctrine that because prevent it from too suddenly imposing a Chairman of a Company said a certain too heavy obligations on the Company, thing the whole Company was to be and at the same time to make it valuable prejudiced. If a Chairman had indulged as a means of relieving the men from in reflections upon the wisdom of Parlia excessive hours, and, further, of securing ment in passing this Bill, it was no the safety of the public. He did not reason why they should depart from their think it would be desirable to go beyond own settled procedure and reverse their the ruling of the Chair and enter into own policy in a matter so deliberately the particular instances of contest and settled as this was settled by the Act of discussion which had arisen between the 1893. He could not assent to that Great Eastern Railway Company and distinction. But there was another the Board of Trade. There had been, thing to be said about this Bill. These no doubt, a certain number of cases in Bills are not promoted exclusively in the which they had been unable to take the interests of the Railway Company. They view the Company desired them to take, were promoted for the benefit of the and the Company had not, so far, made general public as well. They were, in the reduction the Board of Trade thought many cases, for better facilities for the desirable. These matters, however, were working classes getting to and from not concluded, and he thought it would their work. They were very often Bills be going beyond the limits of the for increasing the means for the public Speaker's ruling if he were to discuss safety, and for taking additional lines them now. He therefore came to the to improve their stations or their shunting question which was really raised by the yards, and in that way to provide it Motion, that the Bill be rejected. He must be for the safety of their workmen. must observe upon that that it was ex- They were, perhaps, for the purpose of tremely undesirable, for various reasons, doubling their lines and running their that the House should take this oppor- trains upon an additional line so as to tunity of pronouncing an opinion upon secure greater immunity from collision. the conduct of a Railway Company in Under these circumstances, they must matters which were not concerned in the not regard these Bills as solely in the Bill primarily before the House. This interest of the Company, which they question of the hours of railway servants would punish if they rejected them. For was one which had been put, in the first these reasons he hoped his hon. Friend instance, into the hands of the Board of would not persevere in his objection, but Trade with a view to bringing about a would be satisfied with the attention he friendly solution, and the remedy pro- had drawn to the language of the vided in case a friendly solution was not Chairman of the Company, and to the arrived at was by proceedings before unfortunate results which must follow if the Railway Commission. Parliament Companies were to set themselves in had, therefore, deliberately prescribed a opposition to the deliberately adopted method by which this question should policy of Parliament. be determined. In other words, it had removed it from the practical cognisance of this House, and it had, by implication, said that there were no matters of such a nature that should be raised on the Second Reading of these Bills. He MAJOR RASCH (Essex, S.E.) said, he was not concerned in the least in the Great Eastern Railway Company, except that he had the misfortune of living upon it. He spoke simply in the interests of the agricultural community. *MR. MACDONALD said, his point would venture to suggest to the hon. was that when a Railway Company, Member who had made this motion that which had expressed a hostile opinion such speeches as the one to which he had with regard to General Acts of Parlia- called attention meant practically absoment regulating the conduct of its busi- lutely nothing. In this case nothing ness, applied to Parliament for extended had been done after the speech of the powers, then this House ought to Chairman which could in any way pretake cognisance of the attitude of judice the employés of the Company. If that Railway Company in determining the hon. Gentleman carried his Motion whether the application should be granted. he certainly would not penalise the M. Bryce. Company. He would not do any harm did not need anyone to defend his reputo the Chairman, but he would do con- tation. He had been a highly-respected siderable harm to those men who were Member of the House off and on for employed by the Company. He should many years, but as far as the passage have no objection to the Great Eastern quoted from his speech was concerned, Company receiving a lesson, for they the noble Lord deserved more than the charged the highest possible railway faint praise by which he had been rates for agricultural produce, and they damned by some of his defenders. The did not enjoy the wheeled arrangements noble Lord was not only within his right, which they called carriages which were but within the limits of his duty, in run on their line. He thought none placing before his shareholders matters would deny that the county of Essex which he thought deserving of their conshould have new communications and sideration. If such a person, occupying fresh facilities of transit, and it was ab- a position of public responsibility, were solutely necessary for the farming interest to be cramped in the expression of his that these communications and facilities mind to his own shareholders, it was should be given and made. He there carrying any supposed ideas of privilege fore hoped the hon. Member would see to a very far pitch. He thought the fit, under the circumstances, to withdraw remarks of the noble Lord were fully his Motion. justified. No doubt he was speaking from full knowledge, and as the result of inquiry; and, if he had not been straightforward to his shareholders, he would proceedings of the House to be delayed, and its time occupied by political con MR. C. DODD said, that he had not read the speech of the Chairman of the Great Eastern Railway Company, but he wished to have further imformation have deserved their censure. Were the with respect to this Bill, whether the Board of Trade had any special ground of complaint against the Great Eastern troversies arising out of the meetings of Railway Company, either in regard to Directors and shareholders of public the enforcement of the Railway Servants' companies? If there was anything in Hours Act, or the working of the Con- the Bill to which any hon. Gentleman ciliation Clause under the Traffic Acts. took exception the House would hear The Standing Orders, giving directions him, but he hoped the present Motion to the Private Bill Committees, did not would not be taken as a precedent for contain anything dealing with recent re-thrashing out questions on which legislation. The Board of Trade had no Parliament had already decided. power to enforce its views with respect MR. T. GIBSON BOWLES said, that to reasonable charges under the Traffic the principle laid down by the hon. Act, and the House ought to support the Member for the Maldon Division could Board of Trade where the Company not be allowed to pass without challenge. showed itself to be absolutely unreason- It was that when a railway company able. Again, with regard to the hours failed to agree with the President of the of railway servants, wherever a company Board of Trade and his subordinates, it had refused to attend to the reasonable was to be penalised when it came to requirements of the Board of Trade, the Parliament for further powers. He House would be informed of the fact could not understand hon. Members who when it was being asked to confer further called themselves Liberals complaining powers upon that Company. were of the remarks made by the Chairman of MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, a Railway Company in criticism of an Thanet) thought the House would have Act of Parliament or of a Public Departno difficulty in supporting the President ment. How was it possible to get of the Board of Trade with respect to foolish Acts of which there were some this particular Amendment, but some and mischievous Acts--of which there protest ought to be entered against the practice obtaining in some quarters of the House of introducing, under cover of an Amendment, to resist the passage of a Private Bill, controversies of a more or less political character. The Chairman of the Great Eastern Railway Company many-repealed unless public attention was called to them? He thought it was the doctrine of the Liberal Party above all others that it was the business of those who objected to any law to go on agitating until it was repealed. Why should an official, such as the noble Lord, |