MR. BUCHANAN: I have the noble Lord's speech with me.

An Hon. MEMBER: Read it.

MR. BUCHANAN: It would be out of Order to read it; the speech was delivered on the 4th of May of the present year. It was a speech in which the noble Lord gave the results of his Indian tour. He said that, though it might be premature in him to express any opinion as to the results of his Indian experiences, still there were four things that he thought it was necessary and right that he should bring before his audience as dangers to the stability of our rule; and of those four things two were the discontent in the Indian Army of a most serious kind and the grievances, some of which he said were well founded, between the Indian Princes and the Calcutta Government.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): What are you quoting from?

MR. BUCHANAN: From The Times newspaper of the 5th of May. The noble Lord said that there was discontent of the most serious kind in the Indian Army.

frontier railways and other projects for military defence; but he (Mr. Buchanan) would put it to the Committee whether it was not more for the permanent welfare of India and its inhabitants to spend money in developing the country, on roads and public works, which would tend to the ultimate prosperity and wealth of the country, rather than to waste it on useless military works and railways for military purposes. Then the noble Lord had accused the noble Marquess of having lowered the Salt Duty and reduced the Native Army. Well, the answer to that had been suggested by the noble Lord himself, because, after having accused the Marquess of Ripon of having lowered the Salt Duty, he had, in a subsequent part of the same speech, thanked him for having done the same thing; and he (Mr. Buchanan) was bound to say that it was to the credit of the Marquess of Ripon, and it would be to the credit of the noble Lord himself, if during his administration he could do anything to reduce the taxation which pressed so heavily on the poorest classes in India. Then the noble Lord had attacked the Marquess of Ripon for admitting the Natives to a certain degree of political power, and had found fault with him for having advanced education and freed the Press; and it had been a matter of great astonishment to him (Mr. Buchanan) when he had heard the Vice President of the Council (Mr. E. Stanhope) justifying the noble Lord's accusation against the Marquess of Ripon. It was an astonishing thing that the right hon. Gentleman-himself a Minister of Education in that Houseshould think it a matter of reproach to the Marquess of Ripon that he had, during his Viceroyalty, largely increased the expenditure on education in India. He (Mr. Buchanan) knew, of course, that the noble Lord had no liking for the development of a free Press in India. He knew he had no liking for the growth of political influence among the Natives of India, because he had himself denounced those two kinds of development of recent years in India as two of the greatest dangers to their Empire.

THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman will not be in Order in quoting a speech made this Session.

MR. BUCHANAN said, that he should pass the Report to which he referred over to the noble Lord, if he desired to look at it. At any rate, the noble Lord had given those four points as, in his opinion, salient features of the condition of things in India, the consideration of which had been forced upon him during his tour in that country. The four points were-discontent in the Native Army; grievances which were found to exist between Native Princes and the Calcutta Government; the great development and free comments of the Native Press; and the growth of political intelligence among the Natives. The noble Lord had summed up by saying that those four elements were among the dangers to which our rule was exposed in India. He (Mr. Buchanan) thought he could refresh the memory of some Members of the Committee, without quoting the noble Lord's speech, simply by informTHE SECRETARY OF STATE (Lording them that it was the speech in which RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): The hon. Gentleman is entirely incorrect. I disclaim ever having made any statement to justify that observation. VOL. CCC.

[THIRD SERIES.

the noble Lord denounced the probable conclusion of peace by the late Government with Russia as "terrible news." ["No, no!"] Yes; the noble Lord had

2 Y

denounced the action of the late Government in that respect in these words, and he had denounced it, too, in the same speech as "a base and cowardly surrender." Well, if he (Mr. Buchanan) might be allowed for once to stoop to use the language of the noble Lord he should say that his speech that night was a base and cowardly attack upon the Marquess of Ripon.

THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to use language of that kind.

MR. BUCHANAN: If in quoting the language of the noble Lord I find myself using un-Parliamentary phrases I withdraw.

THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Gentleman repeats such language I shall insist upon his resuming his seat.

of all the people of India. ["No, no!"] Yes; he maintained that that was the case, and, in the third place, it was the only just and prudent policy which this country could pursue. And more than that, if the noble Lord attempted, or wished to attempt, by this Commission or Committee which he was going to appoint, to arraign the policy of the Marquess of Ripon towards the Natives, he would be really arraigning the policy of the Queen's Proclamation of 1859, on which all the liberties of Her Majesty's Native subjects depended. He had felt extremely astonished when he had heard the noble Lord say that he had the full consent of his Colleagues in the appointment of this Committee or Commission. He had felt particularly astonished to hear that he had the assent MR. BUCHANAN said, he withdrew of the right hon. Member for Mid Linthe expression. He would only quote colnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope). That right one other statement of the noble Lord, hon. Gentleman was Under Secretary for and that he was entitled to quote, as the India at the time when a Motion was noble Lord had made it that night. He brought forward towards the close of the had summed up his attack upon the last Parliament on this subject by the late Marquess of Ripon by saying that he Mr. Fawcett, in the spring of 1879. The disowned and repudiated the policy of Motion was opposed by the Government the late Viceroy. Those were the iden- then, and all hon. Members on the tical words the noble Lord used the Front Ministerial Bench had voted other night in regard to Earl Spencer- against it, the right hon. Gentleman he had disowned and repudiated his the Vice President of the Council (Mr. policy. So they found that one of the E. Stanhope) included; and therefore it leading principles of Conservative policy appeared that the noble Lord had sucat that moment was ingratitude in dis- ceeded in turning over all his Colowning public servants who had dis-leagues to his own view on this subject charged their public duty faithfully ac- to such an extent that they were now cording to the commissions which had prepared to adopt a policy which a few been given to them. The noble Lord years ago they condemned. The noble in the course of his speech-and he Lord had stated-and so far as he (Mr. (Mr. Buchanan) hardly thought it worth Buchanan) remembered he had stated while to detain the Committee, however, it in public before-that the justification by going into it at that hour-had gone for inaugurating a Committee of Inon to propose, at the end of his speech, quiry into the affairs of India was that that they should have a Commission of the Indian was a despotic Government, Inquiry into the condition of the Go- and that it would be better to have the vernment of India. But the noble Lord free air of an inquiry in the House of forebore to tell them what the scope of Commons upon it. The Government of that inquiry was to be. He should India no doubt was a despotism; but like to ask the noble Lord whether part it was a despotism defined and restricted of the scope of that inquiry was to be by law, and he thought that a control an examination into, and arraignment over the affairs of the Natives such as of, the Marquess of Ripon's Native they exercised in India was not likely policy. He was sure the noble Lord to be beneficially modified and imdid not wish to examine into that; but proved by inquiries from time to time if he did, he would put it to him that by Parliament or some political authoas he himself had been in India sincerity. He thought they should rather take that policy was begun he must know very care that their despotism and their Gowell that, in the first place, it had been vernment in India was strictly guarded successful, and that, in the second place, in its execution by definite, well-conit had won the enthusiastic approval sidered, and prudent laws, and that Mr. Buchanan

they also ought to take care that those | point another Commission. He should who were charged with the adminis- have thought the noble Lord might tration of that system were carefully have devoted his attention to the work chosen and selected, and had to look for of seeing that the recommendations of the success of their career to the pros- Committees and Commissions already apperity and welfare of the people com- pointed were carried out. For instance, mitted to their charge. Of course, they there had been a Committee which had all knew perfectly well that complaints sat on Indian finance for a number of had often been made against the Go- years, there had been a Committee on vernment of India; the noble Lord had Public Works, there had been a Comin other places told them something mission such as that the noble Lord had about those complaints. The noble wanted to institute-namely, a Famine Lord had told them that the Govern- Commission, which had inquired into the ment of India was an enormous legis- social and economical condition of India. lative machine; that it had too great The recommendations of the Finance rigidity, and a want of sympathy with Committee had not been carried out, and the people of India; and in a great mea- far from all of those of the Famine Comsure, undoubtedly, that was the case. mission had been carried out. And then But it seemed to him that if they were there had been another of those Commisto endeavour in any way to remedy that sions, the recommendations of which were state of things-he did not say they now lying still-born in the India Officecould wholly do so, because he believed namely, the Simla Army Commission, that some rigidity and want of sympathy which had been alluded to that night. was indispensable to anything like the The noble Lord had spoken of economy government they now exercised over in regard to the Indian Army; but he India-but if they were to attempt (Mr. Buchanan) would point out that to remedy it, he believed it would be the Simla Army Commission did not much better for them to do it by merely recommend the reduction of the careful legislation for India, and by Forces of India, but several reforms careful administration there than by which would tend to economy and effisetting up in the House of Commons ciency. Those recommendations, howCommittees or Commissions to inquire ever, had never been carried out. He into a great variety of subjects. There was could have enlarged further upon those just one word more he should like to say points had it not been for the cause he upon this subject. There was, no doubt, had already referred to, and just before a tendency in a Government such, as sitting down he would repeat once more that of India, composed, as Lord his deep regret at what had taken place Lytton had estimated it, of 1,000,000 that night, and his belief that very officials-there was, no doubt, a ten- disastrous consequences would ensue dency among so many officials of lower from the present conduct of Indian grade to exercise petty tyranny over those affairs in that House. who were subjected to them, and no doubt it was difficult to have perfect articulation to the extremities of such an elaborate machine. But he did not see how a House of Commons' Committee or a Commission could remedy a grievance of that kind. If the Committee was, as he suspected it would be, a Committee of the House of Commons, it would have to sit in this country, and in such an event it would be useless for the purpose the noble Lord appointed it. If, on the other hand, the noble Lord proposed sending out a Commission, it seemed to him that that work would be practically interminable. There was one direction in which he should have thought that the noble Lord might have exercised his energies before proceeding to ap

THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL), in reply, said, he hoped that when the defence of the Marquess of Ripon's policy in India, which they had that night been given to understand would shortly be forthcoming, was attempted, it would be undertaken in a more coherent and more impressive manner than that which had been exhibited by the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. A greater farrago of inaccurate assertion, inaccurate quotations, and inaccurate representations of other people's opinions than that in the hon. Member's speech, it had never been his misfortune to hear; and, for his part, he entirely declined to take up the time of the House of Commons, at that late hour of the

against him by the hon. Member for Edinburgh of being responsible for a deficit of £15,000,000 in the Indian Revenue, and for adding to the Indian Army an additional expenditure of £2,000,000 a-year. It was in order to free the present Government from such charges that he knew would be recklessly and widely made that he had deliberately adopted the course he did. He once warned the Party opposite that the doctrine of legacy might be used with fatal effects against themselves. Nothing was hurled over and over again more virulently against the Tory Party than the charge that all the difficulties and perplexities that the late Government had had to encounter, and which compassed them about, were a legacy from their Predecessors. As far as the present Government was concerned with regard to India, he had been determined that on this question it should be impossible for hon. Members to say that the present financial imbroglio was not a legacy from the late Tories to the Liberals, for, as a matter of fact, it was exactly the reverse. There was only one other point in the speech of the noble Marquess on which he would attempt to make any remark. The noble Marquess had complained that he had given him no notice of the remarks that he intended to make. He was not aware that when a Minister was going to make his Statement-his annual Statement— in the House of Commons, it was in ac

evening, in attempting what he knew beforehand would be the utterly impossible task of making the hon. Gentleman understand the real opinions which he (Lord Randolph Churchill) had expressed, and the facts concerning Indian affairs which he had placed before the Committee. Turning from the observations of the hon. Member to the remarks of other hon. Members who, differing from the hon. Member for Edinburgh, had confined their remarks to the question before the Committee, he would express to them his sincere acknowledgments for the manner in which they had received the Statement he had been allowed to make. He could assure them, whether as regarded their criticisms of those parts of his Statement with which they disagreed, or their suggestions of what they would wish to see carried out in India or embodied in Indian policy, that they should have his most earnest attention. He could assure those hon. Members that he received their criticisms and suggestions in a most respectful manner. Before allowing the debate to come to a close, he would wish to make one remark in answer to the observations which had fallen from the noble Marquess the late Secretary of State for India (the Marquess of Hartington). The noble Marquess had charged him with having adopted an unusual course in making a Party attack upon the late Viceroy of India on the Indian Budget. That was, to some ex-cordance with precedents that he should tent, a misrepresentation of the course he had pursued. No doubt, he had adopted an unusual course in criticizing as he had done the policy of the late Government; but the Committee must remember that he had to deal with unusual times. It was absolutely necessary, in dealing with unusual times, that he should to some extent depart from the usual course which had been adopted on former occasions; and nothing could show that more clearly than the speech which had fallen from the hon. Member who had just sat down. It was absolutely necessary that he should show the Committee and the public who were the authors of the heavy expenditure and the heavy deficit he had referred to, and which they had to meet. He thought it was most fortunate that he had been able to do that, because they had had an admirable specimen of the line adopted by Radical Members in the accusation made Lord Randolph Churchill

give his opponents, or anybody else,
notice of the exact line of observation he
intended to pursue. He had never
heard of such a course being adopted.
The noble Marquess must know the cir-
cumstances of Indian finance, and he
must have known, before he left Office,
that those circumstances were of so pecu-
liar a kind that they would attract
the most direct, and probably severe
criticism possible-the severe criticism
of anyone who commented upon them
from an opponent's point of view. The
noble Marquess said he was not pre-
pared for such an attack. The noble
Marquess had only shown in his conduct
of the debate that night the extraor
dinary amount of unpreparedness which
was one of the main features of the
policy of the late Government.
could not understand how anyone, know-
ing the character of the finances of India
for the year, could suppose it would be

He