in a great saving to the Treasury. He | was very glad to hear that his right hon. Friend was so anxious to carry out the recommendations of the Commissioners, and hoped that before another year had passed some progress would be made in the matter. MR. SEXTON said, he would point out that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland had not replied to the questions put to him respecting the increase of the warders' salaries, and also respecting the case of the man Nolan. COLONEL NOLAN asked for leave to withdraw his Motion. ["No, no!"] MR. SHAW LEFEVRE said, he thought that, at that hour (1.20), it was not unreasonable that they should report Progress, especially as there was a very important subject to be brought forward. There were only three Votes in Supply remaining, and they could be very well discussed to-morrow. THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Colonel STANLEY) said, he had hoped that there would be no objection to take this Vote to-night. He had postponed it four or five times, in the endeavour to meet the convenience of various Members of the Committee, and he was rather led to believe that that night there would be no objection to take the Vote, looking to the time of the year and the general state of Sup THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE) said, he included the question regarding the warders' salaries in the matters which he said had not come under his cognizance. With reference to the case of the man Nolan, he promised the hon. Member for Sligo to make every in-ply. The statement he had to make quiry. Vote agreed to. COLONEL NOLAN, in moving to report Progress, said, he did not wish to be obstinate; but he would like to know what Vote the Government intended to take to-night? Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."(Colonel Nolan.) THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND) said, it was intended to take the Bechuanaland Vote. SIR ROBERT FOWLER (LORD MAYOR) said, he must appeal to the Government not to take the Bechuanaland Vote that night. It was most important that the Vote should be taken at a time when the debate could be fully reported. It was very necessary that his right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley) should make his statement at a reasonable time, and that it should find its way into the public prints. He understood, too, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) wished to address the Committee on the subject. The speeches of those right hon. Gentlemen on this subject might not excite any great feeling in this country; but they would be read with interest at the Cape. He hoped the Government would not persist in taking the Vote that night, upon the Vote was of a comparatively brief nature, and he did not think it would lead to any prolonged discussion. He was afraid that if they postponed the Vote until to-morrow, they would not have the presence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster). The Vote was not for a large amount, being one only intended to cover the existing services for the year. He hoped the Committee would take the Vote now, particularly as another opportunity would be afforded for discussing it. MR. SEXTON said, that if the Government did not propose to take any other Vote but that for Bechuanaland, he should recommend his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Nolan) to withdraw his Motion. SIR FARRER HERSCHELL said, he would submit to right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench that the Opposition were entitled to a little consideration. Hon. Members sitting below the Gangway got the Votes in why they were interested fixed just as th pleased. ["Oh!"] He did not co plain of hon. Members getting that; but he did submit to the Government that some consideration should be shown to those who sat in the Opposition part of the House, when they made a request that a Vote should not be taken at a time when they considered it could not be properly discussed. The Bechuanaland Vote did not stand next. The Vote for National Education in Ireland was the next Vote in order; but that had | ral Benches were remarkable for their been postponed because hon. Members emptiness. They had been at work the desired its postponement. The Post whole of that night, and since 6 o'clock Office Vote was not to be taken that the Liberal Benches had only had one night, because hon. Members below the occupant, and he was asleep. He conGangway wished it should not. The sidered that the Irish Members were hon. Gentleman the Member for Sligo entitled to as much consideration as (Mr. Sexton) had just said that if the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Government would not proceed with Opposition Benches, and therefore he any Vote but that for Bechuanaland, he strongly objected to the taking of the should recommend his hon. and gallant Post Office Vote. Friend (Colonel Nolan) to withdraw the Motion to report Progress. Surely, under the circumstances, it was not an unreasonable appeal that was now made. It could not be suggested that any Members of the Opposition had done anything to impede the progress of the Estimates. He knew there were Members who felt very strongly that this Vote should not be taken at this time. THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Colonel STANLEY) said, that rather than there should be any wrangling, he would not proceed with the Vote. He had thought it was to the convenience of certain right hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Vote should come on that night. MR. R. H. PAGET said, he hoped the Vote would be taken that night. If hon. Gentlemen desired to discuss the Vote when the proceedings could be fully reported, they would have an opportunity of doing so on Report of Supply. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Nolan) had expressed a desire to withdraw the Motion to report Progress. He (Mr. R. H. Paget) hoped it would be withdrawn. MR. MOLLOY said, the proposition of the hon. and learned Gentleman for Durham (Sir Farrer Herschell) was that the Committee should proceed with the Post Office Vote that night, and postpone the Bechuanaland Vote until tomorrow. The Irish Members were in the House during the whole of last night, and remained in attendance till half-past 3. They were obliged to be present on account of Bills being brought on in which they were interested. Where was the hon. and learned Gentleman ? He was not present. SIR FARRER HERSCHELL: I was the last person in the House, and spoke on the last Bill which was taken. MR. MOLLOY said, that last night the Irish Members were in attendance; and, if he remembered aright, the Libe Sir Farrer Herschell THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. H. SMITH) said, the Government desired to put an end to this conversation-it was really only wasting the time of the Committee. If right hon. Gentlemen opposite did not wish to take the Vote, the Government had no wish to press it on. His right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley) only proposed to take the Vote because he was aware that several Members were remaining in the House to discuss it. The Government would consent to report Progress, and put the Vote down for to-morrow. THE CHAIRMAN said, it was necessary that the Motion be withdrawn, in order that he could put the Question that the Resolutions be reported to the House. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, SUPPLY.-REPORT. Resolutions [27th July] reported. Resolutions 1 to 29, inclusive, agreed to. (30.) "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £16,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1886, in Aid of the Cost of Maintenance of Disturnpiked and Main Roads in England and Wales during the year ending on the 25th day of March 1886." MR. MARUM said, that this was a Vote of £16,000 for Disturnpiked and other Roads in England and Wales. There had already been voted £215,000 for roads in England and Wales, and £35,000 for roads in Scotland. The Votes taken for County Court Houses and Sheriffs' Courts brought the sum that had been voted in easement of the taxation of counties in England, Scotland, and Wales, to the round figure of £350,000. There was nothing of the kind voted for Ireland. A similar sum | A. J. Balfour) was a very dangerous voted to Ireland would amount to some- one for Irish ratepayers. The fact rething like £3,500 to each county in mained that money was voted in aid of easement of local taxation. He would local taxation in England and Scotland, like to hear what was the reason of such and none was voted for a similar puran enormous sum being given in aid of pose in Ireland. It was said that Irelocal taxation in England, Scotland, and Ĩand did not pay a Carriage Tax; but Wales, and not a farthing being given the Irish people paid an enormous sum to Ireland? upon their alcohol. It was very hard that a rich country like England should receive a handsome grant towards its roads, and that a poor country like Ireland should receive nothing at all. Howover, he did not wish to press the matter now, because the present Government had not had time to turn their attention to it. THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) reminded the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Marum) that the present arrangement was made by the late Government two years ago. The subvention was not given to Ireland, because in that country there was no Carriage Tax. Of course, the Government had not pretended to give a reconsideration to the whole question of subventions in aid of local taxation. All they had done was to take the basis laid down by their Predecessors, and, in accordance with that basis, to propose to the Committee the Supplementary Estimate which was absolutely necessary. Any reconsideration of the question which might be necessary must be reserved for a future time. SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA said, it was no argument to say that this subvention was not extended to Ireland, because there was no Carriage Tax in that country. All the Imperial taxation levied in Ireland had been measured against the Imperial taxation levied in England, by ascertaining what Income Tax it would take in order to pay off the taxation. In England, an Income Tax of 2s. 6d. in the pound would discharge all the Imperial taxation; but it would require an Income Tax of 58. 3d. in the pound to discharge all the taxation which was levied in Ireland. He did not want to argue the point now; but it was ridiculous to talk about the nonextension of assessed taxation to Ireland, when Ireland paid in proportion to her income more than double England paid upon her income. SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, he did not think this was the time to enter into the consideration of the imposition of assessed taxes in Ireland, and, therefore, if his hon. Friend (Mr. Marum) went to a division, he (Sir Patrick O'Brien) would vote in opposition to him. COLONEL NOLAN said, the argument used by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. MR. WARTON said, he did not wish to delay the progress of this Bill; but he had an Amendment on the Paper to one of the clauses. He desired to point out to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. A. J. Balfour) the difference between some of the provisions in the Bill and those in 5 & 6 Vict. c. 97. In the present Bill, the pauper lunatic and the lunatic who was not a pauper, but was simply walking about, were jumbled up in a most remarkable way. It would have been far better if they had followed the wording of the old Act. It would have been better if Section 2 had been divided, so as to have made a distinction between these two classes of lunatics. He would not move his Amendment, but recommended the matter to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL (4.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Public Works Loan Commissioners to remit all sums due in respect of the North and South Lanarkshire and East and West Lanarkshire Roads over and above the sum of £6,287 88. 7d. and the interest thereon, in respect of the debt of the North and South Lanarkshire Roads, and over and above the sum of £4,549 10s. and the interest thereon, in respect of the debt of the East and West Lanarkshire Roads. GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) expressed a hope that the hon. and learned Member would not (5.) Resolved, That it is expedient to autho delay the progress of the measure. With-rise the Commissioners of Public Works in out the Bill, pauper lunatics had to be taken to the police station and placed in a cell, which was perhaps one of the worst places that a lunatic could be put into. Therefore, he hoped the hon. and learned Member would not press his Amendment. Bill reported, without Amendment. Bill read the third time, and passed. SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND [SALARIES]. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the salary of a Secretary for Scotland, and of any officials who may be appointed under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for appointing a Secretary for Scotland. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. PUBLIC WORKS LOANS, &C. [ADVANCES.] Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) (1.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise advances out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or out of moneys in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners held on account of Savings Banks, of any sum of money not exceeding £3,000,000 in the whole, to enable the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and not exceeding £1,500,000 in the whole, to enable the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, to make advances in promotion of Public Works. (2.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise further advances out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of any sum or sums of money, not exceeding £100,000 in the whole, to enable the Land Commission in Ireland to make advances, or for the purchase of Estates, in pursuance of "The Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881," and "The Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883." (3.) Resolved, That it is expedient to empower the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury to reduce from five to four per cent. per annum the rate of interest payable on the debt due to the Public Works Loan Commissioners by "The Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Act, 1883." Mr. Warton Ireland to remit the sum of £440 28. 2d. being the amount with interest of a debt due by Timothy Moore in respect of certain buildings erected as dwellings for the labouring classes in Dublin. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. POOR LAW GUARDIANS, IRELAND [COST OF Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment of Costs of Prosecutions, and compensation for loss of time, which may be incurred under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for amending the Law relating to the Election of Poor Law Guardians in Ireland, in like manner as the Expenses of Prosecution in cases of felony in Ireland are paid. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. House adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, 29th July, 1885. MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee Resolutions [July 28] reported. WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Committee - PRIVATE BILLS (by Order)-Lords Amendments PUBLIC BILLS Ordered First Reading Crown Lands' Committee - Sea Fisheries (Scotland) Amend- | in course of payment during the year ending on ment [250] R.P. the 31st day of March 1886, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland." Committee-Report- Revising Barristers* [237]. Third Reading-Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Birmingham, &c.) [228]; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Public Health Act) (No. 2) * [212], and passed. MR. SEXTON said, he believed that the Lords had taken out certain words from the Amendment which had been proposed by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy). He (Mr. Sexton) was not in a position to judge what the exact effect of the Lords Amendment would be; but the Parliamentary Agent had assured him that the only effect of making it was to render the provision more operative. If the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Ways and Means accepted the assurance of the Parliamentary Agent he (Mr. Sexton) would not object to the Amendment. THE CHAIRMAN (Sir ARTHUR OTWAY) said, he was quite prepared to accept the Lords Amendment. He had not had an opportunity of carefully considering the matter; and he was bound to rely very much upon the judgment of the Parliamentary Agent. But as he had always found that the view of the Parliamentary Agent was never misleading, he was quite prepared to accept the Amendment on the assurance which had been given. Lords Amendment to Commons Amendments agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY. SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART. (1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £466,303, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come VOL. CCC, [THIRD SERIES. 7 MR. SEXTON said, he thought it was a matter of regret that the Government had not seen their way to the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate in order to eke out the miserable incomes of the National School teachers of Ire land; and he hoped it might not yet be quite too late for them to reconsider the matter. The National School teachers of Ireland had a powerful claim upon the Government, no matter what Party was in power; but he thought they had a specially powerful claim upon the present Government, for reasons which he would briefly state. Ten years had now elapsed since the right hon. Baronet the Leader of the House procured the passing of a Bill under the provisions of which the Boards of Poor Law Guardians in Ireland were enabled to contribute to the incomes of the National teachers. At the time of the passing of the Bill the right hon. Baronet declared that if the measure were found to be ineffective for this purpose the Government would see that the losses of the teachers were made good in some other way. It was notorious that the Act turned out to be a complete failure. There were 165 Poor Law Unions in Ireland, and he did not suppose that one of them contributed now to the incomes of the National School teachers. In fact, the failure of the Act was so complete that three years after it was passed into law, the Members of the present Government being then in Office, the House of Commons adopted a unanimous Resolution declaring that the condition. of the Irish National teachers demanded the immediate attention of the Government. Later on a sum, equal on the average to £4 a-year, was added to the incomes of the teachers; but when they considered the failure-the very natural and justifiable failure-of the Board of Guardians to contribute to the expense of a system over which they had no control, and when they considered also the demands that were made on the incomes of the teachers by the requirements of be admitted by everyone who had paid the pension scheme, he thought it would the least attention to the subject that the condition of the National School teachers in Ireland was, practically, no |