Parcel carts. In these carts the drivers were often seated under a hood or cover. so that they could only see straight forward; and he suggested that provision should be made for so seating the drivers that they could see freely to the right and left, and avoid the danger of coming unawares with other vehicles, or driving over pedestrians at the crossings of the streets. THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Lord JOHN MANNERS) said, he had really nothing to say against the statement made by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton). He believed it was a statement of facts; but whether he could say that he agreed with the conclusion drawn from these facts was a matter which he thought, perhaps, had better stand over for the present. When he came into Office, he found that his Predecessor had gone closely and impartially into the question, feeling honestly anxious to do what he could for the Province of Connaught in the matter; and he himself since did not see his way to go beyond the offer which his Predecessor had made. The hon. Member for Sligo now, however, pointed out that Connaught was a neglected Province; that the Legislature, recognizing this view, had given relief and assistance to the Province; and that the present Government, recognizing these facts, might apply to Connaught a more generous and liberal rule than usually enforced by the Post Office. He was sure the hon. Gentleman would not expect him suddenly to give any answer upon that question as now raised; but he would say this to the hon. Gentleman, that he would promise carefully to reconsider the whole question, and see whether terms and arrangements might not be come to between the Railway Company and the Post Office. Beyond that he did not think it would be right for him to go now; but he would promise the hon. Gentleman that at least he would do that. With regard to the question of giving lights to the mail carts, he would, now that his attention had been drawn to the matter, see whether an alteration could be made in the desired direction; and with reference to the suggestion that the limit of weight in the Parcels Post system should be raised, the matter was under consideration, and he hoped that ere long the grievance complained of would be remedied. Mr. J. G. Hubbard COLONEL NOLAN said, he thought the answer of the Po-tmaster General was satisfactory as far as it went. He did not speak there on behalf of the Railway Company. He spoke in the interests of his constituents, who did not care about the railway, and on whom the present mail service pressed very hardly. He wished to inform the noble Lord that before the Session closed the hon. Member for Sligo would put a a Question on this matter, and he trusted by that time he would have made up his mind upon it. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4. THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. PLUNKET): Sir, as the Committee last night were good enough to allow me to take this Vote without discussion, I then promised I would explain it at this stage. I will endeavour to do so as briefly as possible. This is a Vote for £500, part of a sum of £4,000, to defray the expense of erecting a statue at Trafalgar Square, Charing Cross, to the memory of the late General Gordon. The House will remember that about a fortnight ago a Question was asked in this House by the Lord Mayor of London as to whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose a Vote for this purpose? My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer replied that the Government believed that it would be in accordance with a very general feeling, both in this House and in the country, that such a memorial should be raised to General Gordon, and that, when there had been time to consider the question of the position and the precise character of the memorial, he should be prepared to propose the necessary Vote to the House, and my right hon. Friend immediately directed me, as Chief Commissioner of Works, to inquire into the subject. I have lost no time in doing so, and I have been favoured with many valuable and interesting suggestions from various quarters, for which I desire to take this opportunity of expressing my thanks; but I feel I am especially indebted to the kindness of three of our most distinguished living artists-Sir Frederick Leighton, Sir John Millais, and Mr. Watts-whom I particularly consulted. I hope to be able to take advantage on almost every point of the most valuable advice which they were good enough to | mirable sites; and if they wish it, and give me; but there is one respect in will trust me with the choice, I will find, which I am sorry that I am not able besides, artists to whom I believe can be to give effect to their opinion, but to safely confided such a high and noble which I desire for one moment to refer. task. And now, as to the statue of GorThese three distinguished artists were don, for which I am asking this Vote, it unanimously of opinion that this me- is not necessary, nor would time permit morial should take the form of an alle-me, to speak at any length. Certainly, gorical group of sculpture rather than of I shall not say one word that can awaken a simple statue, and, no doubt, there is even an echo of the stormy controversies much to be said in favour of that sug- which have lately raged over the romangestion; but, on the whole, after careful tic adventures and melancholy death of consideration and consultation with many the late General Gordon; for I hope, persons whose opinions on such subjects and I feel sure, that the Vote I am now are entitled to great weight, I have come asking for will be given with absolute to the conclusion that it is a statue re- unanimity. Whatever any of us may producing as nearly as may be the man- think of his views upon political and General Gordon-that the people of this other public questions, there can be no country at the present time, and for all doubt that the character and career time to come, will most desire to have of General Gordon had seized on the among them. Perhaps, however, I may imagination not only of his own counbe allowed in one sentence to express my trymen, but also of foreign nations, own entire concurrence in the opinion as practically illustrating many of the of the three eminent artists to whom I greatest and noblest qualities of Enghave referred, that this great and wealthy lishmen-of the kind of Englishmen Metropolis is lamentably deficient in who have made England what she is. works of Art sculpture, except so far as His fame is the common property of all regards statues, and I am afraid some of English-speaking people, and must for them are not very good. There is ever remain their proud inheritance. It enough of young and rising talent, as is impossible for us at this time to say they assure me, in the Art of sculpture what kind of reward General Gordon in this City well able to adorn our public himself would wish to have desired. places with worthy works of genius of Modest as he was brave, gentle as he was the kind that they suggested should be gallant, probably he cared as little as produced on the present occasion. I any man for the ordinary honours and the must, however, speaking for Her Ma- usual rewards which even brave and disjesty's Office of Works, say that, in view tinguished soldiers are proud to wear of the many demands that we are obliged upon their breasts. Although we know to make upon the Treasury for public that during the siege of Khartoum he buildings and other expenses, we really endeavoured to encourage his followers could not have the face to apply to the through the dangerous vigils and the Treasury to give us anything for these terrible monotony of that long trial by groups of sculpture for the purpose of distributing among them such decoragenerally beautifying this City; and Itions as it was possible for them in their may add that I have not a doubt, if we did make such an appeal, what the nature of the answer would be. But I fully recognize how great would be the improvement which a few really well-executed groups of statuary would be to London; and, if I may venture to say so, I think London is rich enough to indulge itself with such a luxury. A any rate, I throw out the suggestion for consideration merely on my own responsibility as a Member of this House; and I have only to add that if the public wishes for it, and will spontaneously find the money for such a purpose, I should be delighted to undertake to find ad straitened circumstances to produce, When all but life and honour's lost?" Gordon has lost his life, but his honour shall remain bright for ever in the minds | Natives free; he was ordered to come of his countrymen. His fame shall be away from Khartoum, but he disobeyed set among many proud and melancholy orders and remained, and instead of setmemories, adorned by the noblest of all ting them free he spent his time in fightdecorations-the simple dignity of self-ing against and trying to coerce the Soudevotion. But we think it is rightand I am sure all will agree with usthat here in the centre of the Metropolis of this great Empire, close to the Memorials of Nelson, of Napier, and of Havelock, should be placed the statue of another great Englishman, who in the fulness of his fame, in the prime of his manhood, gave up his life freely at the call of duty, and in what he believed to be the service of his country. MR. MITCHELL HENRY said, that the House of Commons, in encouraging English sculptors, had a right to expect the fullest benefit from the money expended. While agreeing with the idea. of a statue to General Gordon, he must say he had never heard of such a sum as £4,000 being taken without one word being said to the House as to the form the memorial should take. The work of erecting this statue was no ordinary matter; and he therefore thought that some right hon. Gentleman upon the opposite Bench ought to give the House some information as to the intentions of the Government as to the site in the first instance, the material, and the mode in which they hoped to obtain the best work of Art under the circumstances. If it were simply to be left to the Board of Works as a matter of taste, he should protest against the Vote. In any case, he trusted the work would be given to a native artist. SIR WILFRID LAWSON said, he did not rise for the purpose of depreciating General Gordon's character, for they all knew he was one of the bravest of men, and that also he had absolutely no fear of death. What he wanted to ask the House was, what great services to the State or to the world had General Gordon done that should make the House of Commons vote money for a statue of him, for he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) supposed that statues were not voted to men simply because they were good and honourable? It was true that General Gordon had heroic qualities; but he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) himself did not think that General Gordon did any good to the State while at Khartoum. ["Oh!" In the first place, when he was sent out to the Soudan his orders were to set the Mr. Plunket danese, a people described by the late Prime Minister as rightly struggling to be free. Then, again, General Gordon had at one time destroyed the irrigation works on the river, an act of war which would not have been permitted by a Mahommedan Power. He did not think Gordon's actions were creditable to this country; and we had got not honour, but disgrace, from this Khartoum business. General Gordon, in his opinion, cost this country millions of money, and he believed if Gordon were alive now he would be the first person to object to money being spent for this purpose. MR. LABOUCHERE said, he entirely agreed with what the hon. Baronet (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) had said. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought when they were asked to vote money for a statue to General Gordon, they ought to have some more distinct statement from the Government as to why they should pass the Vote. It must be remembered that General Gordon came before them as one who went to Khartoum for the specific purpose of making peace. No doubt he fought very gallantly; but he fought in a cause which, in the opinion of some hon. Members, was a wrong one. In that manner he did not carry out the instructions or intentions of those who sent him out. ["Oh!"] Hon. Members said "Oh, oh!" but if they looked at Gordon's diaries they would find that he railed against his Government, and the instructions they gave him. As he understood, they were asked to vote this money on account of what Gordon did at Khartoum. Well, he objected to what Gordon did at Khartoum, and, therefore, he was opposed to the granting of this money. MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK said, that if the two hon. Gentlemen who had just spoken (Sir Wilfrid Lawson and Mr. Labouchere) divided the House on the question, they might possibly find a brace of Tellers; but they would find no one else to follow them into the Lobby. He (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) wanted to know why they were asked to vote £500? His right hon. Friend had not stated what he was going to do with that particular sum. General Gordon was essentially a British hero. He went to Khar toum and Egypt, and sacrificed his life to British interests; and, therefore, he hoped his right hon. Friend would select a British sculptor to carry out the work of his statue. No doubt General Gordon was also a great hero; but they ought to know how this £4,000 was to be expended. In that country, as well as in any other, he contended that where public works had to be carried out, British artists should be employed in preference to foreigners; for there was no doubt whatever that they would prove themselves worthy of the patronage bestowed upon them. He hoped his observations would receive the consideration of his right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works. He objected to trusting this matter to the Board of Works, which, in many ways, had shown its incapacity for dealing with questions of Art. Let them look, for instance, at Hyde Park Corner, where the Board had removed the Triumphal Arch, and set it in a hole where it now stood, on an inclined plane, a disgrace to the Department and to the Metropolis. MR. MITCHELL HENRY said, he could not fail to enter his protest against the manner in which Ministers came to the House, asking for a specific sum for some public work, and, without affording the House any particulars of the object for which the Vote was required, expecting the House to grant it without demur. THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. PLUNKET) said, that the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Mitchell Henry) would perceive, on looking at the Estimates which were laid upon the Table yesterday, that the particulars of the Vote for providing a statue to General Gordon at Charing Cross were duly given. This Vote of £500 was merely asked for as a preliminary step, so as to obtain the sanction of the House to the proposed statue, and so as to enable him to enter into negotiations with regard to it, so far as related to the selection of an able sculptor to carry it out. It was not usual to state the names before the negotiations were actually commenced, and, indeed, he could not now state who the artist. would be; but he could say that the statue would be of bronze, and would be placed at Charing Cross. MR. MITCHELL HENRY asked whether it would be an equestrian statue? MR. PLUNKET said, it would not. Resolution agreed to. TELEGRAPH ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Mr. Hibbert.) [BILL 121.] COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, Chair."Mr. Shaw Lefevre.) "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWRENCE said, it was of great importance to the trading community of the country that the Bill should be passed without delay. He was anxious that the sole benefit of 6d. telegrams should not fall altogether to the rich and powerful, but that small tradesmen and others should derive equal advantages therefrom. He must, however, be allowed to express his strong disapproval of any plan which would abolish free addresses. That would be a departure from the principle on which the telegraph system was established when it was taken up by the State. When the telegraph service was in the hands of different Companies there were different rates of charges for telegrams to different places-some telegrams costing only 6d., while others, such as telegrams to Ireland, were sent only at a minimum charge of 28. The State resolved to buy up the telegraphs, and to have a uniform charge for telegrams to all parts of the Kingdom, allowing 20 words to be sent for 18., and in all cases allowing addresses, whether long or short, to go free. It was now proposed to alter that system by counting in the words of the addresses as part of the telegram. That would be tantamount to inflicting a fine on long addresses; and, having regard to the fact that in London it was frequently very necessary to add the name of another street to define where the firstnamed street was, a charge for addresses would be especially hard on poor people in London. Thus, there were 37 High Streets in the Metropolis, and these had to be further described by the name of the district in which they were situated. He must be allowed to express his surprise that the Post Office authorities should say that the average address of telegrams numbered 10 words. He had compared the number of words in the addresses of letters which he had re ceived from all parts of the Kingdom of London (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) with the number of words in his own views which were exceedingly heretical address; and he found that the smallest with regard to political economy. His number of words in his own address hon. Friend had stipulated for a fixed was seven, doing away with any pre-price-for what? Why, for a variable fixes or affixes, and simply confining the quantity, a course of procedure directly address to the name and the direction. contrary to political economy. The right That he believed to be the average of hon. Gentleman the late Postmaster the addresses of most hon. Members in General had made a proposition which the House; but, no doubt, there were a he considered to be fair and reasonable, large number of addresses which reached and clear and distinct in its operation. eight, nine, and 10 words. He was In this case, when they had a fixed price convinced that many telegrams con- for a fixed quantity, no one could have tained at least 14 words in the address, any doubt as to the construction of his and the probability was that the average message. With regard to the desire number was higher than 10. With re- which had been expressed to meet the gard to the step which was proposed to wishes of the humbler classes, he must be taken in regard to the curtailment of point out that telegrams were a luxury addresses, he believed it to be a down- of the rich, and that the poorer classes ward movement, and that it would be only used them in circumstance of exbreaking up that principle of the uniform treme emergency, when questions of rate irrespective of distance or the num- economy could not be permitted to enter ber of words in an address, and break- into their calculations. For instance, in ing down the system which had been the case of serious illness or urgent established at the taking over of the business the humbler classes might have telegraphs. He had proposed that there recourse to the telegraph, but scarcely should be 6d., 9d., and 1s. charge for otherwise. They must look upon this telegrams; but the Department was op- as a question of the State conferring a posed to any system suggested by an great boon on the public; and, in that outsider. He could not understand whe- view, it ought not to be compelled to ther the Post Office wished to increase do its work at less than a fair equivathe service of telegrams among the mass lent. Therefore, inasmuch as the rates of the people, or whether they simply of postage for letters and parcels varied wished to extend its use among those according to the weight of the missives, classes who at present used it. He be- so it was equitable and right that the lieved that if they abolished free ad- cost of telegrams should vary according dresses much disappointment would be to the length of the messages that were caused, believing, as he did, that the wired. The right hon. Gentleman the proposition of a free address was a good late Postmaster General had done all one. It had to be borne in mind that that could be done in the way of conwhen it was said the Department would cession. The proposition of d. per lose by continuing the system of free word was perfectly definite and clear, addresses the loss thus estimated was and he hoped it would be carried into simply a speculative one. There could execution. be no doubt that the telegraphic system was capable of extension in a manner which the Post Office authorities had not the slightest conception of; and therefore, in the interests of the Post Office and for the benefit of the great mass of the people, he would support the proposition that the addresses should be free. Personally, he was in favour of a tariff of four words, including free address, for 6d. ; and he would be prepared to move an Amendment to that effect in Committee. MR. J. G. HUBBARD said, he was concerned to hear from his hon. Colleague in the representation of the City Mr. Alderman W. Lawrence MR. SHAW LEFEVRE said, he hoped that as no Amendment had been made to the Motion "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," the House would now allow the Bill to get into Committee. Question put, and agreed to. Clause 1 (Construction and citation of Clause 2 (Postmaster General to make regulations for conduct of business and to fix charges). |