MR. CHILDERS said, there was no increase on this Vote, but a decrease. The old pay of the War Office was shown, which used not to be the case. SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT said, | ments of the Civil Service, had since, in that the Vote was increased this year consequence of re-organization, reached by a sum of £16,000. This was always higher establishment in their respective a particularly heavy Vote; and when Offices than these supplementary clerks they saw the Services of the Army very occupied in their Departments. It was often cut down to meet the requirements a very unfortunate fact for those gentleof the nation, as far as economy was men that were allotted to the War Office, concerned, they had never seen the War because, had they been allotted to any Office expenses cut down. It always other Office, they would have reaped struck him that this enormous expendi- considerably greater advantages. Many ture in various ways in the War Office gentlemen who competed side by side with might be reduced to a certain extent; these clerks in the year 1870, and who he did not say to any great extent, and failed in the examination, came up in subin no way could it be better effected sequent years, took lower places, and were than had just been mentioned by his allotted to other Departments; but they noble Friend, because he was satisfied had since reached a higher establishthere were many efficient non-commis- ment than those gentlemen who had sioned officers who might be employed as passed a better examination. There clerks in the War Office, and who would were 171 men clerks in the lower diviconsider the pay very excellent remune- sion, who, under the present regularation. Even old officers might be em- tions, would not be admissible to the ployed here with very good effect. higher establishment for four years more. He thought it was a reasonable suggestion that as the lower division clerks could not, for four years more, be admitted to the higher division, the MR. SEXTON wished to make an higher establishment should in the inquiry of the right hon. Gentleman meantime be thrown open to the supwith respect to the position of supple- plementary clerks. It was not denied mentary clerks to the War Office. He that the supplementary clerks performed found, on reference to the Estimates, their duties well. Many of them, in that there were 70 of these gentlemen, fact, performed precisely the same duties and all but five were supplementary as the clerks on the higher establishclerks of the first class, beginning at a ment, who received a much more consalary of £180, and advancing by incre- siderable salary. In point of fact, the ments of £10 to a maximum salary of present system came to this-that the £300. In order to make plain the posi- higher establishment was reserved for tion which these gentlemen held, he new comers, who, it very often hapwould refer to the 21 principal clerks, pened, were instructed in their duties who began at a salary of £700 a-year, by the supplementary clerks. He would and advanced by increments of £25 to like to ask the right hon. Gentleman £900; there were 45 senior clerks, who whether, since the re-organization of began at £450 a-year, and advanced by the War Office, two years ago, any increments of £20 to £650; there were vacancies had been filled up on the 65 clerks in the upper division, 63 of higher establishment of that Office; and, whom began at £150 a-year, and, by if so, if they had been filled up from increments of £15, rose to £500, while the supplementary clerks-gentlemen althe remaining two clerks began at £150, ready within the walls of the Office, and and, by increments of £37 108. trien- familiar with the duties of the Officenially, rose to £400 a-year. It was quite or whether the vacancies had been filled plain, in comparison, that the supple-up by new comers; and, if so, why? mentary clerks occupied a very disadvantageous place. The right hon. Gentleman would remember that these gentlemen were admitted upon the open competition system for Civil clerkships; and it was a curious fact that gentlemen who competed at these same examinations in 1870 and the year succeeding, and who were allotted to other Depart Was it to be understood that these 70 gentlemen had to stagnate in this supplementary Department, while persons much their inferiors were admitted to higher salaries? These gentlemen could not regard their position with satisfaction; and if the right hon. Gentleman would say he would take into the higher establishment such of the supplementary clerks who might be proved by expe- | under the present system were much rience to be fitted for the higher estab- better off than formerly. lishment, he would do that which, while Vote agreed to. promoting the Departmental efficiency, would be an economy of the public funds. MR. CHILDERS said, the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman could not be acted upon. The supplementary clerks had only gone through an inferior examination as compared with the clerks on the higher establishment. He would, however, look into the matter with the view of seeing how far the position of the supplementary clerks could be improved. MR. SEXTON said, he hoped that the difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman had seen was not an insuperable one, because it seemed to have been got over in all the other Departments except the War Office; gentlemen admitted in the lower departments of the other Public Offices had reached higher establishment. He should not press the right hon. Gentleman further than to express the hope that any statement which the supplementary clerks might lay before him would receive his attention. Vote agreed to. (11.) £95,000, Half Pay. MR. CAINE said, he had a Notice on the Paper last year to the effect that it was undesirable that Members of this House, who were officers of the Army, should any longer be Members of the House if they remained on full pay. When he put that Notice on the Paper there were 13 Members of the House in that position; now there were only five. Eight of them had either left the House or gone on half-pay, and he hoped that by this time next year the remaining five would have followed the example of the eight. SIR HENRY FLETCHER said, he hoped the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, and who did everything he possibly could to upset everything connected with the Service in the way of canteens and other matters, would not be allowed to press his Motion. In his opinion, Gentlemen who were officers in the Army were quite able to do their duty as Members of the House. Vote agreed to. (12.) £1,116,100, Retired Pay, &c. MR. FIRTH noticed an increase of (10.) £26,700, Rewards for Distin- £18,000 for retired Field Marshals; guished Services. there were only three more retired Field Marshals this year than last, and therefore he thought this increase required some explanation. MR. CHILDERS said, that the increase was balanced by the reduction in the Pension List. MR. BIGGAR said, he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question similar to the one he asked last year; it was regarding Major General Tillot. Major General Tillot retired at a time when England was at war in the Crimea, and that was held by Regulations 54 and 55 to disqualify him from promotion. He (Mr. Biggar) was aware that he was entitled to a promotion in rank, but not to a rise in pay. elected to continue to be aide-de-camp to the Commander-in-Chief, and get decent pay and forego his promotion in rank. As that gentleman applied to get on half-pay, the Committee were entitled to some explanation. He SIR HENRY FLETCHER said, that, as an old Guards officer who had served MR. CHILDERS said, he was not quite sure as to the latter point; but as to the former point it was quite true his attention had been called to the matter. There had been a case of a Presbyterian in which pressure had been applied to have the Service conducted according to the rites of the Church of England; but as soon as he heard of it he interfered and saw the matter put right. Army Estimates. 1044 during the Crimean War, he must ask | this year. Did the present payment inthe Committee to allow him to say a few clude anything for Presbyterian chapwords to refute the imputation cast by lains? the hon. Member upon the honour of a brother officer, whose personal friendship he had had ever since the Crimean War. The hon. Member brought forward this question over and over again; it had been answered by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and by other hon. Members in the House, and it was really quite past endurance that it should be brought up each Session of Parliament, in order that a reflection might be cast upon the character of a gallant gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would bear him out in saying that this matter had nothing to do with the Vote before the House. Vote agreed to. (13.) £123,200, Widows' Pensions, &c., agreed to. (14.) £15,500, Pensions for Wounds. SIR HENRY FLETCHER said, there was a question which he desired to ask the right hon. Gentleman which, he believed, had been laid before the War Office and also before himself. Was it true that if an officer received a wound when on picket duty he was not entitled to the same allowance as if he received a wound while in front of the enemy? MR. CHILDERS believed there was a distinction between a wound received in action and a wound received otherwise. SIR HENRY FLETCHER said, it was a very important question. Certainly an officer who had received a severe wound while on picket duty ought to be entitled to the same allowances as if he had received it in front of the enemy. MR. CHILDERS said, he would take the matter into consideration. MR. CAINE: I see an item of £70 here for a Whitster-in addition to a pension of 28. a-day. May I ask what is a Whitster? MR. CHILDERS: I believe he is a man-at-arms. Vote agreed to. (16.) £1,389,700, Out-Pensions. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR asked for information concerning the new system of paying pensions through the Post Office? SIR ARTHUR HAYTER said, he was glad some notice had been taken of the question of payment of pensions through the Post Office, because there was a friction when it was first established, although the mode of payment was thought very much better. Revised rules were issued, and the result was that the out-pensions in all the 66 districts, with the exception of the Liverpool district, had been paid by the end of the first week in July. The Secretary of State for War had officially recognized the exertions of the officers in the Pay Departments, and he (Sir Arthur Hayter) was glad to say that the new system was now working well. Vote agreed to. (17.) £197,700, Superannuation Allowances, agreed to. (18.) £51,800, Militia, Yeomanry Cavalry, and Volunteer Corps, agreed to. (19.) £1,100,000, Army (Indian Home Charges). MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, that on this Vote he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to what he thought was a real grievance on the part of the soldiers. It was this-that when they were sent abroad they were obliged to pay for their sea-kits. Why, he would ask, was a soldier obliged to pay for SIR HENRY HOLLAND inquired whether the Vote included non-effective charges? MR. CHILDERS: Yes. that which was of no earthly use to him | £15 to £240; while the third class clerks, after the voyage was over? who numbered 62, began with a salary of £90, which rose by increments of £5 to £160. This last named class felt greatly aggrieved by this arrangement. They said, in the first place, that their salaries were too low when the qualifications required of them and the kind of work they had to do were considered. He would not detain the Committee by describing in detail the nature of the work performed by them; but he would state generally that it consisted in registering in the public records of_a_great variety of writs affecting landed property, and on the absolute correctness of this Register the validity of the titles to a great deal of property in Scotland rested. Professional knowledge of a very considerable kind was required by these clerks, as well as ability to pass the ordinary Civil Service examination; and they had to bring evidence that they had served a certain time in the office of a SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would devote some attention to a question which had been brought several times before the Public Accounts Committee by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and that was the question of the payment of arrears for the Non-Effective Services. The matter had now been three years before the Committee, and a careful Report with regard to it had been made by the Comptroller and Auditor General. MR. CHILDERS said, he hoped before next year to be able to make some arrangement in the matter. Vote agreed to. (20.) £500,000, Afghan War (Grant solicitor. In point of fact, a very large in Aid), agreed to. CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. CLASS III.-LAW AND JUSTICE. (21.) £26,383, to complete the sum for the Register House Department, Edinburgh. number of the present third class clerks had served full apprenticeships in lawyers' offices, had attended legal classes, and possessed very considerable legal knowledge. For men possessed of such qualifications, and requiring to do such work, he thought the Committee would MR. DICK-PEDDIE said, he wished agree with him that the remuneration to call attention, for a few moments, to was altogether inadequate. They also this Vote. Last year he directed atten- complained that their salaries were too tion to the position of different grades low as compared with those of the other of clerks in the Sasine Office; but as classes of clerks in the Sasine Office, the the Vote came on at a late period of the duties they had to do being exactly simiSession, and about 2 or 3 o'clock in the lar to those of the other clerks. There morning, he had refrained, out of con- was hardly any work done by the first sideration for the time of the Committee, or second classes which was not also done from entering fully into the question, and by the third class. The third grievance had contented himself with giving No- was that the amount they received in tice of his intention to do so this year. salaries was very small when compared He had had a Motion on the Paper this with that given to clerks in similar Session; but, owing to the condition of branches of the Public Service. Не Business in the House, he had not would especially refer to the Irish moved it. He could not, however, now Registry of Deeds Office. The salaries allow the Vote to pass without saying a paid to clerks in the Irish Registry of few words upon it. He would state, Deeds Office were very much greater shortly, his grounds for raising the ques- than those given in the Edinburgh tion. The Staff of the Register House Office, although in the former the was reorganized last year under a Mi- same amount of knowledge was not renute of the Treasury, and under that quired as in the latter. In the Irish Minute the clerks in the Sasine Office Office no knowledge of law was required, were divided into three classes. The and the work given to the clerks was salaries of the eight first class clerks of the simplest kind. They had nothing rose by annual increments of £10 from to do with what was one of the most im£250 to £305; the salaries of the second portant duties of the clerks of the Sasine class clerks-12 in number-began at Office-namely, preparing the minutes £170, and rose by annual increments of of the deeds presented for registration. In Ireland those were prepared by the solicitors of the persons whose deeds were to be registered, and a large cost was thus incurred by the clients of those solicitors, which was entirely saved in the case of the Scotch Office. Then, as to their qualifications, the Irish clerks, he understood, had simply to pass the ordinary examination for the Civil Service Departments, and were not required to have any legal or professional training of any kind. It seemed, therefore, very inequitable that while they received salaries beginning at £90, and rising by £10 annually, the clerks in Edinburgh should begin at the same salary and rise only by £5. He wished to point out that the whole of the Register House in Edinburgh was very unfairly dealt with as compared with the Registry of Deeds Office in Ireland. In the Scotch Office there were 82 clerks altogether-first, second, and third classes -and they received in salaries £12,582, whilst in Ireland there were 62 clerks, who received £14,231. If the Scotch clerks were paid in the same proportion as the Irish they would receive £18,850, or about 50 per cent more than they actually received. That was an inequality that should require a great difference in the kind of work done; but, as a matter of fact, the work done in the Registry of Deeds Office in Ireland was of an inferior kind to that performed in the Scotch Sasine Office. He did not make any objections to the payment given to the Irish clerks. He did not regard it as at all excessive, and he merely compared the payment in the Irish Office with that of the Scotch, for the purpose of bringing out the injustice done to the clerks in the latter Office. The inequality appeared still greater when they looked at the profit yielded by the Scotch Office as compared with that derived from the Irish Office. In 1880-1 the Register House in Edinburgh cost the country £21,975; but there was received from stamps £25,977, so that there was a profit of £4,002. On the other hand, the Irish Office cost the country £18,255, and the stamp duties came to only £12,498, so that there was a loss on the Irish Office of £5,737. The Scotch Office, therefore, doing a great deal more work, and bringing in more revenue than the Irish Office, received less pay for its clerks. He might mention the English Registry of Deeds Office, where, Mr. Dick-Peddie on an expenditure of £5,400, there was a loss of £4,000. The grievance to which the most importance was attached was the unequal division of the classes; and they justly complained that the chances of promotion afforded them in consequence of the very large number of third class clerks, as compared with the numbers in the classes above, were very small. There were, as he had already shown, 12 clerks in the second class, and 62 in the third, so that they were as 5 to 1; and it must be evident to all that the chances of promotion to the higher classes were very small. In the Irish Office the third and lower class clerks were only about two and a-half times more numerous than the higher classes, so that their chances of promotion were double those of the Scotch clerks. He could not find in any Department of the Civil Service any such inequality as existed in the Sasine Office. He had very shortly and very hurriedly stated the position of the clerks in the Sasine Office; but he trusted he had said enough to show that they had good ground of complaint, and to induce his hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to look favourably upon their claims, and to consider that some steps should be taken to do justice to them. He had now to state very shortly what it was the third class clerks asked. They asked, first, that the rate of increment of salaries should be increased; secondly, they asked a re-arrangement of the classes, so that their chances of promotion might be improved, and made more in accordance with what was almost invariably found in other branches of the Public Service. They did not object to classification, for they recognized that that was necessary in all public offices, to give advantages to seniority; but they thought that the arrangement in this Office was a very inequitable one. The third thing they asked for, failing the granting of the two former, was a public inquiry into the arrangements of the Office and the various classes in it, such as he understood had been granted some years ago in the Irish Office, and the result was highly satisfactory. had no doubt that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, to whom the subject might be new, would look into the facts, and would give just consideration to the claims of a most deserving class of clerks; and he trusted-at any rate next year, if not now-a satisfactory He |