MR. T. P. O'CONNOR remarked that the convicts at Spike Island found useful occupation in constructing a breakwater. However, the place was condemned on all hands; and he took that opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman whether, if a Royal Commission were appointed, its functions would include the examination of witnesses, or the investigation of the question as to whether a new convict prison should be made in place of Spike Island, and, if so, whether the public would be allowed to give evidence? MR. TREVELYAN said, he was under the impression that an official inquiry had taken place in connection with the subject just referred to by the hon. Member for Galway, and that ground had been marked out whereon to erect a new prison. He could not, however, pledge himself to any details, nor make any other promise than that when the time came for taking into consideration the scope of the inquiry, the subject brought forward by the hon. Member for Galway should be named. Vote agreed to. land. The appointment of such a body | whom people would have an opportunity would be very likely to rectify any of laying their complaints. abuses which might exist in the Irish prisons, and so remove the just causes of complaint which, unfortunately, gave occasion for the exaggerations of popular speakers. There were two points which he wished to urge on the attention of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the Commission-first, that they should consider the condition of Spike Island Prison; and, secondly, the question of the establishment of a system of outside and independent inspection of Irish prisons. He had, as a member of the Penal Servitude Commission, seen Spike Island, which had left upon his mind the most painful recollections; and he felt sure that those Members who had seen it, or might see it hereafter, would retain equally unpleasant impressions of it. He did not remember to have spent a more disagreeable time than when he visited the place in question. Not only were the approaches to Spike Island objectionable, but the arrangements under which it existed were altogether eminently unsatisfactory; and, therefore, he trusted the whole subject would be considered. He had on many occasions been forced to disregard complaints made in that House by Irish Members; but he had no hesitation in saying that the management of prisons in Ireland was a question which ought to receive attention; and he repeated the satisfaction he felt at the announcement that it would meet with the consideration it deserved at the hands of Her Majesty's Government. With regard to an independent system of in-mittee of the Council of Education to spection of prisons, he pointed out that a Memorial signed by the Geological the Commission on which he had the Society, and addressed to the Science honour of serving, under the Presidency and Art Department, with reference to of the present Secretary of State for the the Geological Survey of Great Britain. Colonies (Lord Kimberley), reported in It appeared from the reply given that favour of the application of that system the Survey, so far as England was conto the prisons in England and Ireland, cerned, might be completed in two years and that recommendation with respect and a-half from the beginning of last to England, where few complaints were April, and that then it was intended to heard, had been carried out; but set apart a certain number of men now with regard to Ireland, the prisons of engaged upon the English Survey to which country were the subject of con- complete the Survey of Scotland. Having stant reproach and complaint, nothing regard to the rate of progress up to the had been done in the way of pro- present time, it was possible that in viding independent inspection. He 1895 the Survey of Scotland might be would therefore impress upon Her Ma- completed; but it by no means followed jesty's Government the desirability that the public would then reap the of organizing a system of real inspec- benefit of the Survey, because they tion by means of Committees, before found that, although the Survey had CLASS IV.- EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART. (5.) £231,400, to complete the sum for the Science and Art Department. MR. BUCHANAN said, at the beginning of the Session he had called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President on the Com this year on the Scotch Survey, as against six employed in 1881-2. MR. MUNDELLA assured the hon. Member that there was no diminution of the staff. There had been changes from time to time; but the acting number was the same this year as it was last. Vote agreed to. (6.) £82,375, to complete the sum for the British Museum. MR. SPENCER WALPOLE said, the increased amount asked for this Institution was partly due to the increase in the salaries and wages at the British Museum, and still more so to the increase in the salaries, and the transfers of Collections which had taken place in connection with the Natural History Museum at South Kensington. Three out of the four Collections intended to be sent to South Kensington had already been transferred namely, the Geological, Mineralogical, and Botanical. The fourth, or the Zoological Collection, had not yet been transferred, the preparation of cases for its reception requiring considerable now been going on in England for 20 years, and notwithstanding the fact that £4,000 a-year more was spent on that Survey than was spent in respect of the Scotch Survey, only 20 maps had been published in England, and in Scotland only two. So that, although the actual Survey might be completed in 1895, he feared it would be 10 years later before all the sheets were published. He regretted to find by the Estimate now before the Committee that, instead of there being a prospect of the work being accelerated, or even going on at the same rate as last year, there was a decrease of the staff engaged upon the active work of the Survey. No doubt there was one argument that might be used against increasing the active staff, and which was entitled to weight namely, that work of this kind could not be turned over to men who were inexperienced; but, considering the importance of the work, he regarded it as extraordinary that there should be a decrease of the staff engaged on the Survey. He hoped the matter would be proceeded with vigorously, notwith-care, pains, and labour. He believed, standing that the reduction of the staff seemed to indicate a further consumption of time for the completion of the Survey. He did not wish to express any dissatisfaction with the work done in connection with the Geological Survey in Scotland; but merely to remark that the Survey generally, which appeared to be going on very slowly, might, in his opinion, be very much accelerated by the exhibition of a little more generosity on the part of the Science and Art Department. MR. MUNDELLA said, the Department was doing everything in their power to facilitate the Geological Survey. But, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh had justly remarked, it was not desirable to place important work of this kind in inexperienced hands. It was the intention, as soon as the Survey now in progress in England was finished, to transfer the staff engaged therein to Scotland, so that the work there would from that time proceed much more rapidly. MR. BUCHANAN asked whether a successor had been appointed to the Director of the Scotch Survey? MR. MUNDELLA said, he thought no appointment had been made. MR. DICK-PEDDIE said, it appeared by the Estimate that there would only be four assistant geologists employed Mr. Buchanan however, that the transfer would be 709,000 to very nearly 1,000,000 for the (11.) £2,000, Aberystwith College, same period. Wales. for the Deep Sea Exploring Expedition (12.). £2,100, to complete the sum (Report). SIR HENRY HOLLAND asked whe ther the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could give the Committee any notion when the Report of the Expedition would be finished, and when an end would be put to the charge? MR. COURTNEY said, he was happy to be able to inform his hon. Friend that the Report of the Expedition was being proceeded with rapidly; but he could not say when it would be completed. MR. MAGNIAC believed it would be five years before the volumes on special subjects would be ready. Vote agreed to. MR. MAGNIAC said, the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was one of very great interest to those who had at heart the well-being of the Museums throughout the country. He hoped the distribution of specimens would be in future carried out to the fullest extent of the powers of the Trustees. They were aware that the powers of the Trustees were limitedthat when an object was sent to the Museum the Trustees were obliged to keep it there, and that they had no power to move many specimens which would be most serviceable and proper in other museums, notwithstanding the fact that there were at the British Museum whole Collections of objects which would be much better placed elsewhere. thought the time had arrived when the large Collection of Medals at the British Museum should be placed in a position where they could be better inspected. He thought that a great deal more than could be effected at the present time under the existing system was necessary to bring an appreciation of all these Collections home to the minds of the MR. BUCHANAN said, he was sorry people which, after all, was the real ob- at that hour of the morning to have to ject in view. He was glad to hear the speak upon this Vote; but he would right hon. Gentleman the Vice President only occupy the attention of the Comof the Committee of Council on Educa-mittee for a minute or two. He wished tion make a firm stand at an earlier period of the evening against the creation of a new Museum in London. Vote agreed to. He (8.) £3,462 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,977), to complete the sum for the National Portrait Gallery. MR. MAGNIAC said, that this Collection of Portraits, which had grown in a most unprecedented and unforeseen manner, was an illustration of the disadvantage of having no controlling power for making such exhibitions available to the public. He thought there should be a Committee of Inquiry into the subject. Vote agreed to. (13.) £9,680, to complete the sum for the Transit of Venus. (14.) £13,532, to complete the sum for Universities, &c. in Scotland. (15.) £1,700, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c. Scotland. to make an observation with regard to the grant for the National Galleries of England and Scotland. He had already asked a Question with regard to the Scotch National Gallery, his opinion being that if extra payments were made they should be made to the three National Galleries equally. Why, he would ask, should Scotland be left out in the cold? An objection raised by the Secretary to the Treasury was that the authorities in Scotland had a right to accumulate a surplus from year to year. That was, no doubt, true, the grant to the National Gallery of Scotland being on a different footing to the grants to the other countries. There had been a composition since the Union. The Scotch National Gallery, having a right (9.) £16,900 (including a Supple-lated, had disposed of that surplus from to any surplus which might be accumumentary sum of £6,500), to complete time to time, and had built the Royal Institution with it. It was limited as to its disposal of the funds, for, accord the sum for Learned Societies and Scientific Investigation. (10.) £6,631, to complete the sum for ing to the Act of 1847, the money had to be applied in manner specified in a the London University. VOL. CCLXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] 3 B (16.) £380,461, to complete the sum for Public Education, Ireland. MR. SEXTON said, he wished to say a word or two in order to bring to the notice of the Government the fact that certain ladies imprisoned by the Govern Treasury Minute. Under the existing | Gentlemen from the other side of the Treasury Minute, the Scotch National Border would experience no lack of. Gallery had no power to spend money in support from hon. Members on that the purchase of pictures. He had no (the Ministerial) side of the House. intention of saying anything about that; Vote agreed to. but he would say that while the English National Gallery received such a large grant, and while there was so much given for the English National Portrait Gallery, Scotland also ought to have a If grant for the purchase of pictures. time had allowed it, he should have moved to reduce the Irish or the Englishment had been rather harshly treated by the Commissioners; and not only Vote; but the period was so late, and so many Scotch Members had gone to their these ladies, but their relatives. He own country, and he should get such knew one case where a man was arlittle support if he made that Motion, rested on suspicion of having committed a political offence under the Coercion that he would not adopt that course. Act. He was a teacher, and his sister However, he thought it was a scandal and brother were teaching with him. that such an enormous expenditure The Commissioners, in consequence of should take place upon the English National Gallery, and that nothing the imprisonment of this brother, deprived both these people of the promoshould be given to Scotland. tion they had a right to expect. Now that the Coercion Act was about to expire, he would press the Government not to allow the position of these persons to be made worse by the fact of their having been imprisoned under that Act, and certainly not their rela MR. COURTNEY said, the National Gallery Trust in Scotland rested on a different foundation altogether from that of the English National Gallery. In England the Trustees only received an annual grant, which they could not accumulate, but had to return if they did not use it. In Scotland that was not the case; and they had, in fact, accumulated a great surplus. tives. Vote agreed to. (17.) £1,098, to complete the sum for Teachers' Pension Office, Ireland. (18.) £325, to complete the sum for the Endowed School Commissioners, Ireland. (19.) £2,439 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,000), to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland. The (20.) £10,178, to complete the sum for the Queen's Colleges, Ireland. MR. DICK-PEDDIE said, he had intended to call attention to this matter; but in view of the work the House still had in hand he thought it would be better not to. But if the question was not raised now, perhaps no notice of it would be taken during the interval beThe tween this and the next Session. grant was not a grant of public money to Scotland; but was really a payment to Scotland of her own money. payment was made in accordance with an arrangement entered into at the time of the Union. While England received £2,300, Scotland received £2,100, and out of that had to support a School of Art, an Antiquarian Museum, and pay £960 to the Scotch Board of Fisheries, and only some £860 was left for the Arts, and that sum was swallowed up in maintaining the Gallery, so that not ld. could be spent in the purchase of new works of Art. MR. MAGNIAC said, that the Scotch Members only had to put a reasonable grievance before the House to have it redressed. He was sure that hon. Mr. Buchanan (21.) £1,200, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy. CLASS V.-FOREIGN AND COLONIAL (22.) £92,320, to complete the sum for Diplomatic Services. (23.) £138,100, to complete the sum for Consular Services. MR. MAGNIAC said, that on this Vote he had conferred with his hon. Friend below him (Sir Charles W. Dilke). He would not, at that hour of the morning, detain the House any | tleman ceased to be Governor of Fiji he length of time; but he would just ob- ought to have ceased to hold the office serve that the status of British Consuls of High Commissioner, and that the in some foreign countries was not what post ought to have been given to the it ought to be. Our Agents abroad Governor of Fiji, or to the Commanderwere not the same as foreign Agents in Chief on that station. He (Sir with us in regard to the taxes imposed Henry Holland) should like to know on them, and such like things, which whether the matter had been under he would not now go into. He hoped the consideration of the Colonial Office? the attention of the Government would be directed to the matter. Vote agreed to. (24.) £3,473, to complete the sum for the Suppression of the Slave Trade. MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD said, that the amount spent as a subsidy for the suppression of the Slave Trade in Muscat needed a full investigation, and he would recommend that the question at some future time should be carefully inquired into. MR. EVELYN ASHLEY said, the whole of this question was under the consideration of the Colonial Office, and was in process of re-arrangement. Vote agreed to. MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD asked whe ther it was intended to take the grant for Cyprus after Class V. or after Class VII.? THE CHAIRMAN: After Class VII. (28.) £7,145 (including a Supplementary sum of £2,000), to complete the sum for South Africa and St. Helena. SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, that last year it was proposed that the matter should be considered during the MR. WARTON said, that the item of Recess; and he thought that they £2,200 was really the extra charge for should have some statement as to bringing Cetewayo to this country. whether it had been considered, or, if it["No, no!"] Yes; he believed he was had not been taken into consideration, right this time. that some reason would be advanced for such neglect. The subsidy was started some years ago quite as a temporary matter, and the Motion with regard to it had only been withdrawn on the understanding that the matter would be carefully considered. MR. COURTNEY said, there had been a Report on the matter; but he would inquire as to the position in which the subject stood. Vote agreed to. (25.) £6,296, to complete the sum for Tonnage Bounties, &c., and Liberated African Department. (26.) £870, to complete the sum for the Suez Canal (British Directors). (27.) £20,835, to complete the sum for Colonies, Grants in Aid. SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, he did not know whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could answer a question on this matter. Last year there was a question as to continuing Sir Arthur Gordon as West Pacific High Commissioner. There had been a strong opinion expressed that when that gen MR. CROPPER said, there was an item of £4,400 for the maintenance of Cetewayo this year. MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: No; last year. MR. CROPPER said, that, no doubt, it would have to continue. Whatever the cost was, a great many people would like to know when it would come to an end. There were a large number of people who considered Cetewayo one of the most ill-used of men, and that, of all the cruel wars England had ever waged, none had been worse than that which had led to the deposition of the Zulu King, and the setting up in his place of John Dunn. There could be no doubt that Cetewayo had the sympathy of many people in this country; and he should like to know whether the Government had yet made up their minds what they would do with him? If Zululand was to be governed well, it seemed to him that it should be governed by a man of its own race. ["Hear, hear!"] He would not dispute with the hon. Gentleman opposite who cheered that sentiment as to whether the hon. Member and he (Mr. Cropper) were of the same race; but he was not of |