the same race as Cetewayo, and should | Dunn. The annexation of the country not like to govern Cetewayo's country. had been repudiated by all parties in Had the Government made up their that House, although he knew that minds as to what was to be done with course was advocated by a great many the ex-King? people in Natal. He did not expect to hear anyone in that House argue in favour of annexation, or advocate placing the country under John Dunn; and, under those circumstances, there seemed to him only one course, and that was to restore Cetewayo. So far as he could gather, it was the wish of the people to have their King restored. He had seen paragraphs in the Durban Correspondence of The Times in favour of John Dunn, and he had also seen a statement that the other day a meeting had been held at which Mr. John Robinson, a leading politician in Natal, had moved a Resolution against the restoration of Cetewayo, and carried it against Mr. Escombe; but, as the Committee knew, there had lately been an SIR HENRY HOLLAND (who rose amid cries of "Agreed!" said, he must move to report Progress if he were not allowed to speak on this question. He had strongly opposed the Zulu War, and was of opinion that Cetewayo had been treated very badly; but he by no means thought it right to agree to Cetewayo going back to Zululand, as this country had entered into most solemn promises with the Chiefs; and unless their consent was obtained to his going back, the Government could not, in honour, allow him to do so. They must also get the consent of John Dunn; and if they did not get that consent, the only compromise would be to let Cetewayo have the rest of Zululand. If Cetewayo were re-election at the wish of the Colonial Office stored in that way, he might fall into the hands of the Boers, and he and the other Natives might have a very hard time of it. MR. DILLWYN said, that if they did not let Cetewayo go back they might have to annex Zululand, and that would involve a much larger expenditure than had hitherto been incurred. He thought it would be the most reasonable course to let Cetewayo go back. MR. CROPPER said, there would be no difficulty in making an arrangement with John Dunn, because the whole country would soon be in a condition of the greatest disorder; and, if left as at present, war would before long break out. MR. R. N. FOWLER said, he could not agree with the hon. Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland) that John Dunn deserved any great consideration, for he seemed to be a person of the very worst class with whom they could have to deal. He was a renegade Englishman, who had renounced all the virtues of civilization; and it was much better that the country should be governed by one whose faults were only those of his country than by an Englishman who had renounced all the virtues of civilization, and adopted all the vices of savage nations. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) that the only courses open were to annex the country, restore Cetewayo, or place it under the authority of John Mr. Cropper in Natal. Mr. Robinson and Mr. Escombe solicited re-election, Mr. Robinson urging his claim on the ground of his opposition to the restoration of Cetewayo. Mr. Robinson, however, lost his election, while Mr. Escombe was elected. Under these circumstances, he thought it was evident that, though Mr. Robinson might be able to carry with him a meeting, yet, when the people of Natal were appealed to at the poll, they opposed Mr. Robinson and elected Mr. Escombe, who took a more favourable view of Cetewayo. He did not, however, think that that telegram deserved any great attention by the Committee; and, in his opinion, the best solution of all the difficulties would be the restoration of Cetewayo. MR. ILLINGWORTH said, he hoped the Government would not unduly delay the settlement of this question, because the country was occupying an undignified position with regard to this captive Chief. He could not understand the visit of Cetewayo to this country, unless there was an intention to restore him to his former position. By the Liberals the Zulu War was almost universally condemned; and he failed to see any outcome where justice would be done, and reasonable expectations satisfied, unless Cetewayo was restored. He was satisfied that this country would suffer in reputation and character in bringing Cetewayo here without some assurance that if he could make good his case and give some undertaking he would be restored. MR. T. C. BARING said, the opinion | Votes which would involve serious disof the Committee seemed to be all run- cussion; but it was also probable that ning the same way; but, whatever the hon. Members who were not present Government might choose to do, he could might reasonably suppose that such rapid conceive nothing more unfortunate to the progress would not have been made. relations of England with her Colonies than the restoration of Cetewayo. MR. EVELYN ASHLEY said, all he could do was to repeat his answer that he was not in a position to give any definite information as to the intention of the Government with reference to Cetewayo; but before Parliament adjourned he hoped he should be in a position to give some definite information. MR. WARTON protested against the system adopted that evening of bringing in the Supplementary Votes and tacking them on to the Accounts. He did not object to any Votes; but he did object to this principle, and he hoped in future that Supplementary Votes would be treated as Supplementary Votes. MR. COURTNEY said, what had been done was in accordance with precedent, and that was not the first time this Session that this plan had been adopted. All the Members interested in these Votes were perfectly well aware of what was being done. MR. WARTON said, very bad things had often been done before, and the reason why this was a bad system was that the Supplementary Votes were not published until some of the earlier Votes had been got through. Vote agreed to. (29.) £16,300, to complete the sum for Subsidies to Telegraph Companies. CLASS VI. NON-EFFECTIVE AND CHARITABLE SERVICES. SIR HENRY HOLLAND moved that Progress be reported, as it was most unusual to go on with further Votes at that time of night. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.". (Sir Henry Holland.) MR. COURTNEY admitted that it was unusual; but urged that the Committee should go on a little further, promising that if there was any Vote which really gave rise to discussion he would report Progress. MR. WARTON said, it was very probable that there was no item in these MR. H. H. FOWLER pointed out that this was a time of the Session when it was to the interest of all parties to bring it to a close; and as there were no disputable matters in these Votes, and as any question could be raised on the Report, or on the Appropriation Bill, he thought the Committee ought to help forward the Business this evening. SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, that when the late Government expressed a like desire to get on with the Votes they were most steadily opposed. MR. R. N. FOWLER asked whether the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtney) expected to get his Supply to-night? If not, he could go on with Supply early to-morrow. MR. COURTNEY said, he would be willing to report Progress when this Class was disposed of. MR. T. C. BARING observed, that if there was nothing objectionable in this Class it could be got through in five minutes at the next Sitting just as well as to-night. When he remembered the opposition by hon. Members now on the Treasury Benches, when the late Government wished to take Supply an hour earlier than this, he felt a strong objection to taking a new Class at 2 o'clock in the morning. Question put, and negatived. (30.) £208,582, to complete the sum for Superannuations and Retired Allow ances. (31.) £11,800, to complete the sum for Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c. (32.) £18,900, to complete the sum for Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad. SIR HENRY HOLLAND asked the Secretary to the Treasury, or the Secretary to the Board of Trade, for an answer to a question he had already put. He would point out that one of the disadvantages in taking these Votes so late as this was that there were no Representatives of the Government present. Certain relief was afforded by masters of vessels to seamen abroad; but the Board of Trade, having some doubt as to their statutory power to grant relief, and looking at the difficulty of getting these expenses repaid, had given up these grants altogether. The Public Accounts Committee, however, thought the Board of Trade was not justified in doing that, and the Treasury concurred in that view. He should like to know whether the Board of Trade proposed to yield to the recommendations of the Treasury and the Public Accounts Committee, or to adhere to their determination not to give grants, and try to regain the money paid? MR. COURTNEY said, the Department hoped to regain the money paid, but they had no great expectation of that. They intended to exercise a more rigid supervision over the amounts granted. Vote agreed to. (33.) £432,500, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, England. MR. MAGNIAC inquired what decision had been come to with respect to pauper lunatics who had become lunatics while in prison? He presumed this matter had been settled, but he should like to hear what the decision was, because every day increased the evil, and increased the burden on the ratepayers. The transfer from one prison to another had very much increased this burden, and he hoped to have some satisfactory answer. MR. COURTNEY said, the case to which the hon. Member referred was that of pauper criminal lunatics, who had become lunatics in prison, being transferred to county asylums. MR. MAGNIAC said, they might be pauper lunatics up to a certain point. MR. COURTNEY explained that pauper lunatic criminals whose sentences had expired ceased to be criminals, and were then simply pauper lunatics like any ordinary pauper lunatic. The question of the general expenses had been considered by a Departmental Committee, which had spent a considerable amount of time during two years on the matter. Their Report was made last month; but the Home Secretary had not yet had time to consider their recommendations. MR. MAGNIAC said, he hoped the matter would not be long delayed, because it was causing great dissatisfaction in the country. Vote agreed to. Sir Henry Holland (34.) £40,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Scotland. (35.) £5,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Ireland. (36.) £8,925, to complete the sum for Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland. (37.) 49,326, to complete the sum for Friendly Societies Deficiency. MR. MAGNIAC regretted that there were so few Members present, and wished to know what was the capital amount which this sum represented? Speaking in round figures, one Parliamentary Paper put the amount at £1,200,000, while another put it at £2,100,000. It would be satisfactory to know exactly what the capital amount That no county inspector or sub-inspector appointed before the passing of this Act shall the amount which may be granted to him under be entitled to receive any pension exceeding the scale provided by this Act or the amount which it would have been lawful to grant to him if this Act had not been passed; that every such county inspector or sub-inspector shall, on retirement and if otherwise qualified for a pension, be entitled to elect between such amounts respectively." Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted." MR. HEALY said, that, before the Question was put, he would like to say it was a rather remarkable thing that although the Government had had two clear days in which they could have put this Amendment on the Paper, they had not thought proper to do so. Question put, and agreed to. Bill to be read the third time To morrow. CITATION AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]-[BILL 267.] (The Lord Advocate.) COMMITTEE. Bill considered in Committee. Clause 1 (Short title). MR. HEALY moved to report Progress. This was a Bill concerning which hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House had received a large number of complaints and telegrams. It appeared the Scotch people had taken the liberty to send to Irish Members asking them to represent their grievances. The Committee ought certainly to receive from the Lord Advocate some explanation of the clauses which this Bill contained. One of his (Mr. Healy's) correspondents said he was a messengerat-arms at Edinburgh, that the Government did not give the Law Societies a chance, that the Courts rose before the Bill was printed, and that the lawyers were off to the country without knowing the purposes of the Bill. He did not exactly know what a messenger-at-arms was; but he thought there should be some answer given to the allegations made in reference to the measure. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. Healy.) COLONEL ALEXANDER said, he did not often agree with the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy); but he cordially agreed with him on this occasion, and if he persisted in his Motion to report Progress he should certainly support him. He (Colonel Alexander) had been waiting night after night in order to make certain representations with regard to the Bill. All Scotch Members had been receiving telegrams respecting the Bill; and, in common decency, the representations made in those telegrams should receive some consideration. The Bill was to come into operation on the 1st of October, and all the future gains of the messengers-at-arms would be entirely gone. It was very objectionable that such Bills as this should be brought in at this time of the Session. Though a small class of men were affected, the interests of those men were just as important as those of larger numbers. THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR) said, the object of the Bill was to provide a simpler and less expensive method of serving writs of certain kinds issuing from the Civil Courts than the method now in existence. It was believed that it would be very advantageous, particularly in the smaller class of cases. Representations had been made, especially in reference to serving of such writs in the remoter parts of Scotland, that for the purpose of recovering exceedingly small sums-they might only amount to shillings-messengers-at-arms and other officials were required to be sent long distances, and that the cost of service very often amounted to much more than the actual sum involved in the suit. He apprehended that was one of those things which was a real grievance, and which Parliament ought to do its utmost to redress. There had been of late years a series of Acts passed, under which the facilities afforded by the Post Office had been used for serving writs. There had been citations of jurors and various other citations. The Act of 1871, providing for the serving of a certain class of small debt writs, had been entirely satisfactory. So far from no time having been given for considering this Bill, even while it was in the other House, a representation came up from Scotland, not only entirely approving of the Bill, but expressing a hope that the scope of it might be extended, so as to include executions and diligence, as it was called in Scotland: There was no doubt that such a measure of reform as the present would involve a diminution to some extent of the gains of particular classes; but he had never heard that urged as a reason against the introduction of reforms in themselves clearly advantageous. The method of citation proposed was entirely optional, and anyone who wished to employ a messengerat-arms would still have it in his power to do so. There were other kinds of executions, as distinguished from citations, which this Bill did not interfere with. The officers of the Court could still be employed; but if the law agent preferred to cite the other party to a cause by posting a letter, the option was given him of doing so. As regarded the merits of the Bill, he could hardly suppose there could be any difference of opinion. If there were any objections to it he should be glad to meet them, or to offer any explanations which might be required. He had no desire to proceed with the Bill then, if there was any general wish for a little longer time to consider it; but he might say at once that he had not the least idea of postponing it to another Session. MR. BIGGAR said, he did not think the Bill ought to be pushed forward. It was in itself a dangerous principle to admit, that important documents might be delivered by means of a registered post letter instead of by personal service, and it was too important a Bill to decide upon at the last hours of a long Sitting at the fag-end of a Session. And then, again, there were the claims of the messenger, who might or might not be deserving persons; but the personal service was certainly preferable to the posting of a letter by an obscure solicitor's clerk, who might swear to the posting, and yet, in point of fact, not post the letter at all. If a messenger or an official whose duty it was to serve the notice undertook the service, there was some security that it would be properly done, for he would have the responsibility. But to a dishonest attorney there would be no responsibility in simply posting a letter. Then, as to the Lord Advocate's argument, that this was intended to apply to the poor and more remote districts, he was disposed to think that nothing would be more likely than that the citation would reach a person in the remote Highlands or Islands of Scotland, after the decision had been given against him, and he had no means of redress except by a costly appeal. MR. ANDERSON said, this objection was purely visionary. The Post Office receipt would prove the despatch and receipt of a registered letter. This Bill was merely the extension of a system introduced some years ago by an Act passed by himself, and which had been found to work admirably hitherto; it The Lord Advocate was only going a little further, and he was quite satisfied it would be an immense benefit to Scotland. Motion agreed to. Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow. ALLOTMENTS BILL.-[BILL 227.] (Mr. Jesse Collings, Mr. Burt, Mr. Brand, Mr. Bryce.) CONSIDERATION. Bill, as amended, considered. In Clause 11, page 4, line 18, after the word "case," to insert the words "as stated by the Trustees, such circumstances to be stated in the certificate."— (Mr. Jesse Collings.) Amendment agreed to. Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 19, to leave out the words "such grounds to be stated in the certificate." (M. Jesse Collings.) Amendment agreed to. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."-(Mr. Jesse Collings.) MR. J. G. TALBOT said, he could not claim an intimate knowledge of the Bill, but he understood it made a considerable change in the law; and before the Bill was read a third time he should like to know whether it had the sanction of the Government? If there was no Member of the Government who could speak on it, then the final stage ought to be deferred. MR. MUNDELLA said, the Bill had been carefully examined, and it was approved by the Government, and it had been fully discussed previously and amended by the Government in Committee. They had no objection at all to it. Motion agreed to. Bill read the third time, and passed. EAST INDIA (HOME EFFECTIVE CHARGES OF TROOPS) [SETTLEMENT OF ARREARS]. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to approve the settlement of certain claims by the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury upon the Government of India, as set forth in the Minute of the said Commissioners dated the 2nd of July 1878. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock. |