MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I understand it is usual that in moving this Vote a statement should be made, which I shall be happy at once to proceed to make, giving any information in my power as to the state of the shipbuilding programme, and the extent to which it has been carried out. I will do so as briefly and as succinctly as I can. In introducing the Estimates, the ships which my right hon. Friend (Mr. Trevelyan) named as intended for completion during the present year, were the Agamemnon, the Ajax, the Conqueror, and the Polyphemus. I am glad to say that satisfactory progress has been made with all of them. The two first-named, the Agamemnon and the Ajax, will, I expect, be finished in the autumn, although some delay has occurred on account of the fittings for their armament. In the Conqueror, also, which will carry one 43-ton gun, the fittings have caused some delay, and her torpedo armament is being increased; but she will be finished as promised. The Polyphemus is now complete, except for trials of machinery and steering gear. So much for the vessels promised to be completed during the year. Turning next to the ships which were to be advanced during the year, I am glad to be able to tell the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. W. H. Smith), to whose initiation this most useful and effective type of ship is largely due, that the Collingwood is proceeding most satisfactorily, and will be launched, it is hoped, before the end of the financial year. Her sisters, the Rodney and the Howe, are also being pushed forward. The Edinburgh will, it is expected, be ready to leave Pembroke in six or seven months' time, in a forward state, and it will be brought round to Portsmouth for completion, while the Colossus and the two barbette-belted cruisers, Impérieuse and Warspite, are making good progress. Of unarmoured vessels there are only four which require mention, and they are all of the same class. Of these the Amphion is being advanced satisfactorily at Pembroke, while the Leander, Arethusa, and Phaeton are promised to be delivered within the year by the contractor, a promise which was renewed within a few days of the present time. I have thus exhausted the list of ships in Progress, and I turn to the "fresh woods and pastures new" of which my right hon. Predecessor accorded the Committee a glimpse a few months ago. The first element in the new projects of the Board of Admiralty for this year is the Benbow, for which vessel tenders have recently been invited. SIR JOHN HAY: Is the Benbow to be built by contract? MR. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN : Yes; she will be built by contract. I am going now carefully through the statements of my right hon. Friend and Predecessor. The Benbow, as is well known, will be of the same type as the Collingwood, Rodney, and Howe, but she will differ from her sisters in having somewhat stronger armour on her barbettes, and she, in common with the Rodney and Howe, will carry four 60-ton guns, as against four 43-ton guns in the Collingwood. The Rodney, Howe, and Benbow will carry the larger gun, but the Benbow will be 5 feet longer than the others, and her weight will be 10,000 tons, as against 9,600 in the Rodney and Howe, and 9,150 in the Collingwood. Besides the Benbow, which is to be built by contract, it was announced that two new ironclads would be laid down in the Dockyard; but as little more than a beginning was intended to be made upon the ships within this year, there has been ample time for the deliberate consideration of their type. I am not, however, prepared to state any decision on the subject at which the Board has arrived; and I think the Committee will agree that when we have had so recently, for the first time, an experience on a great scale of the qualities, and a test, it may be, of the weaknesses and defects of our fighting ships, it is only prudent to await full details of the result of that experience before proceeding to lay down any new I am vessels of that degree of importance. | safe to go to sea in all weathers. The Admiralty look to the opinions of not going to enter into the contested the officers commanding our ships in the question whether this doubt is fully East as likely to throw a most instructive justified or not; but the Admiralty have light on many problems of practical resolved to add to one of these vessels a Naval construction, and thus it is that on light super-structure, in accordance with this point-as to the type of the new the recommendations of the Committee ships to be laid down-I have no com- of Designs, so as to increase her stability, munication at present to make to the and, therefore, her general usefulness Committee. The final determination for sea service. These are all the statehas not yet been made. One other item ments I have to submit to the Committee. in the programme disclosed by my right I have put them as briefly as I could. hon. Predecessor remains for me to They complete our proposals for the notice. With a graphic power which year; and the Admiralty believe that belongs to him, in common with few their proposals for the year, carried out other Members of this House, he de- and modified as I have explained, scribed the designs of a new protected promise a substantial increase to the torpedo ship, and excited the inte- strength of the Navy, and will do much rest in it of all who heard him. It is to maintain that great Service in the now proposed to build, with but slight position which it ought to occupy, as alteration, from the design laid before being really, to so large an extent, the the Committee by my right hon. Friend, groundwork of the security, the contwo such vessels-one at Chatham, and fidence, and the pride of this country. one by contract-the latter taking the Of course, if there are any questions place of a corvette, whose building by which any hon. Gentleman wishes to contract was in the original programme. put, or any further details required, I In the present experimental state of will give them to the best of my ability; torpedo armament, it is thought ad- but I have described the main features visable that these two vesssels should of the several vessels, so far as they be capable of carrying either a heavy have not been described before. armament of guns, or alternatively a very powerful torpedo armament and lighter guns. The principal features of the design remain as described-that is to say, there is a strong armour deck near the water-line of a hog-back shape, protecting the magazines and machinery and steering apparatus, while, above this, there will be comfortable accommodation for the crew. There will be a comparatively large coal capacity. Their speed will be from 16 to 17 knots, they will have twin screws, and will depend on steam alone for propulsion. The estimated cost of each of these vessels is about two-thirds of the ascertained cost of the Polyphemus. The dimensions, I may explain, will be nearly those of the Leander class, but in point of protection there is a great superiority. There is but one other matter which I have to bring before the Committee. The Committee are, no doubt, aware of the character of the four vessels of the Cyclops class, which were built about 12 years ago for the purpose of harbour and coast defence. They are powerful and effective ships for that purpose; but in the Report of the Committee of Designs in 1871, a doubt was expressed as to their being Mr. Campbell-Bannerman MR. W. H. SMITH: I have listened with interest to the exceedingly modest statement of my hon. Friend, who has recently joined the Admiralty, and who is naturally not inclined to give any very florid account of the work in which the Department is engaged. This is really the most important Vote of the whole year, and I cannot help expressing my regret that it should be discussed in a thin House at 9 o'clock, on the evening of the 1st of August. It would almost appear as if, in the judgment of the House of Commons, the adequate provision for the material of the Navy is not a subject of very great importance. I myself feel very strongly indeed that in the future no circumstances should be allowed to permit so serious a delay as has taken place in the discussion of the Navy Estimates in the I do not at all blame last two years. the Government for what has occurred; but there can be no doubt that it is a matter of very serious concern to the country that these discussions should be rendered almost useless by delaying them till this period of the Session, when all the interest has been worn out, and a large number of year Members who ought to take an interest | point which was driven home to me in the question are away. I trust that, constantly when I was in Office, and it under any circumstances, whatever may is a point which I am now anxious to happen in future, we may have these drive home to my hon. Friend and the Estimates discussed at a period when Board of Admiralty. I know it is a they can be discussed with advantage matter of extreme difficulty to get a ship to the country. Nearly one-half of the completed. It is an easy matter to build has now passed and we are discuss- the hull of a ship. It is possible to build ing the Navy Estimates, which should ton after ton of hull without delay; you have been fairly checked, if there was have only got to settle upon the design, any reason to check them, by the opinion to employ a large number of men, and of the House long ago. It would not you can add ton upon ton to your buildbe possible now for the Admiralty to ing programme without the slightest take advantage of any discussion that stint. The delay takes place when you may occur. They are obliged to go for- have launched the ship and are talking ward with the work they have taken in about her guns, when you have not hand, and five months of the year having quite made up your mind as what the gone they now come to us for the money, magazine requirements will be, and which, of course, must be given to them, when you are in correspondence with for the Public Service. My hon. Friend the War Department as to the charge the Secretary to the Admiralty has made for the guns. So it goes on week after some statements to which I am anxious week and month after month, and the to call attention. He has stated that ship remains incomplete, and will remain the Ajax and the Agamemnon will be incomplete, unless a very positive will finished this year. I am exceedingly is exercised, and unless some particular glad to hear that that is the case, for individual is made personally responsible our reserves are not, I think, such as for the speedy and absolute completion of would justify a longer delay in the com- the ship. In the programme for 1881-2 pletion of any vessel which would add to the strength of the Navy, or which would be available in a time of war. I think it must be felt by my hon. Friend opposite that we are now reaching a condition in which it becomes a matter of concern, whether, if we are to be engaged in a war, we might not find some difficulty in supplying the places of disabled ships. We have, it is true, the Devastation, the Dreadnought, and the Neptune at Portsmouth ready for sea, and the Ajax and Agamemnon at Chatham, which ought also to be ready for sea. There has been a delay with regard to the sighting of the guns of the latter vessels which is totally unexplained, and which has been much greater than could have been expected. Then there are several ships which are in a state of disrepair, and which could not be put to sea for some months, probably a year or two. The five vessels I have named are all that are available in case it was necessary to send an ironclad fleet to sea immediately, and there is not, therefore, such a provision, or such a reserve as is desirable for a country like this. The point to which I am anxious to draw attention is that there has been very great delay in the completion of those ships. This is a that is to say, last year's programme -we were promised that these two ships-the Ajax and the Agamemnonshould be completed. I do not blame my hon. Friend opposite, nor the Government; but it is a grave matter when the House comes to consider that these ships may be wanted, and wanted immediately. We were promised that they should be completed some time. ago, and they are not now ready for sea. The absence of these ships from the Effective List is the same thing as if they had never been in existence at all for the purposes of an immediate war. If a ship is not ready you cannot call it a ship on the Effective List, and the Service is short by these ships of its proper strength-a strength which only appears upon paper. I have looked at the Estimates of last year, and I find that the Ajax and the Agamemnon were promised to be completed; but the statement put in our hands of the work still to be done shows that 17 per cent of the work on the Agamemnon, and 27 per cent on the Ajax, remains to be completed. And this percentage is, as I have already said, the kind of work which is the most important, and which takes the longest time possible to complete, such as the fittings and the armament. It takes weeks sometimes to get a decision upon one particular item, and it often happens that the work already done has to be undone and done again. It is this kind of delay which I am anxious to press home upon my hon. Friend; and I repeat that it is work which should be undertaken by an individual, which individual should be made responsible for the completion of the ship by a given time. I think I am speaking in the presence of hon. Members who understand the application of that sort of principle to works of construction. I say nothing about the Polyphemus, because, undoubtedly, the Polyphemus is a vessel of an entirely experimental character, and a delay in her completion might reasonably occur. Whether she proves to be a success or not yet remains to be seen-at present she is only an experiment. She is new in every respect and in every degree. I am responsible for the adoption of the design of that vessel, which may or may not turn out a success, although I hope she will. Whether it turns out one or the other, I hold that it was the duty of the Admiralty to make the experiment, to trust to their scientific advisers, and to put complete faith in them, after informing themselves as well as they could. Undoubtedly, an experiment of the kind must frequently be made for the advantage of the Service, and I have no doubt it will fully justify the expenditure which has been incurred. I will, therefore, make no remark upon the delay in the case of the Polyphemus, because it was purely an experimental vessel. But when I come to other questions, I confess I look at them with something of alarm. I think my hon. Friend and the Admiralty will see that they have not been restricted in regard to money, as far as the House of Commons is concerned. I am glad to see that the Admiralty have taken an additional £280,000 on their Vote this year. Last year they estimated for £10,320,000, but now they have increased the amount to £10,600,000, the difference being £280,000 to the good. I think that the Admiralty have done well in taking more money; but my complaint is, that they have not carried out their programme in one important respect. They have not finished those ships which they should have done, in Mr.W, H. Smith order fairly to complete their programme in building iron-clads as well as unarmoured ships. They have delayed some of the armoured ships, such as the Ajax and Agamemnon; but my great complaint is with regard to the delay which has taken place in reference to the repairs. I will take the Return of the ships which has been laid on the Table within the last day or two. I do not speak of the valuable Return of my right hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Sir John Hay), but the Return of the state of the Navy for 1882-3, and I will begin at the beginning. I find it was proposed, according to this Return, that the Audacious should be completed in August, 1882. But if I turn to the Estimates for 1881-2, I find that the Audacious was promised to be completed by March, 1882. It is not completed, and a powerful vessel of 6,000 tons displacement, and 14 guns armament, is not available for the Public Service at the present moment. I think the undertaking of the Admiralty ought to have been carried out. No doubt, I shall be told that some other ship has been completed in place of the Audacious; but the real effect of the delay has been that this vessel and many others are struck out of the effective strength of the Navy at the present time, and thus a considerable reduction in its total strength has been made compared with what it was two years ago. That is the point I am anxious to place clearly before my hon. Friend. Then, as to the Bellerophon, the Government promised in their Revised Estimates, presented in May, 1880, that she should be completed in July, 1881. Last year the present Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant stated that she had been delayed by reason of the breech-loading guns; and now we are told that she will be completed in March, 1883. That promise may be no more fulfilled than the promise of last year. The Invincible was repaired, but I will pass that over. I come next to the Rupert. The Rupert is a vessel of which we were promised that 55 per cent, or more than half, should be completed by the 31st of March, 1882. She has not been touched up to the present time; not a single hand has been put upon her, or, at all events, no effective work of any kind whatever towards her repair has yet been undertaken. I venture to doubt whether the work on that vessel can be finished by the 31st of March, 1883, even if taken in hand immediately. I myself do not think it can. Then I come to the Shannon, which has been standing for repairs for some considerable time. No undertaking or promise has been made this year with regard to that very useful and handy vessel. The Shannon is one of the best vessels for certain service in the Navy. When there was some doubt as to the state of our relations in the China Seas, the Shannon was sent there through the Suez Canal, and from the China Seas, after remaining there for some time, she went to the Pacific, and did good service there. It is a great misfortune that a ship like the Shannon should remain unrepaired for more than a year, and I hope the engagement of the Admiralty will be carried out so far as this ship is concerned. Then I come to the Active, which was promised to be completed by the 31st of March last, and which we are now told will, in all probability, be completed in September this year. Now, I think it is of very great importance to bear in mind the fact that we were promised that these vessels should be in an effective state at this time. There is next the Rover. She was promised to be completed in 1881; then by the 31st of March, 1882, and we are now told she will probably be completed by October next. Then comes the Opal, and next the Sapphire, both of which were promised to be completed by 31st March, 1882; but neither of them is complete at the present moment. They are, however, promised in December. I pass now to a ship which, if she were now effective, would, in all probability, be doing the greatest possible service to the country. I am speaking of the Himalaya. She, as we all know, is a most useful ship. She was promised to be completed by the 31st of March, 1882; but we are now told she will probably be completed in October next. In going through these reports my sole object is to show that there has been a very considerable and serious delay, if not an absolute cessation of progress, in the matter of repairs, the result of which is that, at the present time, the strength of the Navy is a great deal less than the country supposes it to be, or has a right to expect. I do not ask that a single ship should be repaired which is not worthy of repair, or which it is not intended to keep in repair as a VOL. CCLXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] thoroughly useful vessel; but I wish to enforce the principle already laid down more than once in the course of the discussions upon the Navy Estimates that if a vessel is intended to be kept in the Service, if she is recognized as a thoroughly serviceable ship, she ought not to be left unavailable for a single day beyond the actual necessities of the case. But it seems to me a mistaken and, if I may say so, a remarkably short-sighted policy to allow a valuable ship to be laid up in harbour, say, at Devonport or Portsmouth for a long period, during which she is sure to be deteriorating from exposure and other causes which are known to everybody connected with ships, when it is intended at some future time to take her in hand for repairs. Leaving out of the question altogether that the vessels of the kind I am referring to are, perhaps, worth £300,000 or £400,000 each, and that there is, consequently, a considerable loss in interest of money while they remain unavailable, there is ultimately an actual increase of expenditure caused by leaving them unrepaired. It is perfectly well known that vessels, if left for any length of time in a state of disrepair, will get daily, monthly, and yearly into a worse condition, and that their repairs in consequence will cost much more than if they had been taken in hand at once. I have no doubt I shall be told that the exigencies of the Service have compelled the Dockyard authorities to take in hand other ships which have come in for repair, and to deal with them rather than with the vessels to which I am now directing attention; but I venture to impress upon the Committee that if this system be pursued, we shall have such an arrear of repairs as will place us in a position similar to that in which we found ourselves in 1873, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. Goschen) was First Lord. At that period, I believe, my right hon. Friend was almost obliged to stop shipbuilding the building of armour-clad vessels falling to about 3,000 or 4,000 tons or less, simply because he had no ships to use as reliefs. You must not lose sight of the fact that the number of vessels that require to be repaired will also increase. You will probably next year have to take in hand the Alexandra, which has been in commission six or seven years; Р |