politics; and if it were an ecclesiastical appointment, he would ask about his Church; but when it was an educational appointment, he asked what his educational qualifications were. He had reason to believe that Lord Balfour of Burleigh, as an educationist, was an extremely liberal one. He had been told his Lordship was a supporter of the one thing in the Bill which above all else he (Mr. Anderson) approved of-bringing down the date to 1872. That Amendment, which had been passed in Committee by that House, might be strongly opposed and, perhaps, gravely altered in "another place," and it was of im land that they should have such a man as Lord Balfour there to defend the Amendment, and prevent its being reversed. He (Mr. Anderson) should regard the reversal of that Amendment as a very great misfortune, and one which he sincerely hoped would not take place. Personally, he thanked the right hon. Gentleman for his conduct of the Bill, believing that his feeling was shared generally by the people of Scotland. MR. LYON PLAYFAIR said, that he regretted the position which he had the honour to hold as Chairman of Com it would be impossible for him to act so inconsistently with his duty to his family as to work for nothing. Still, the suggestion of the hon. Member might put it in the power of the working men to provide means, and he thought that suggestion well worthy of consideration in the future. He did not like to have to disagree with his hon. Colleague, or to say much in opposition to his views; but he (Mr. Anderson) was himself as strong an advocate for free education as the hon. Gentleman could be. But the free education he looked for was a free education that should be general, and that should not require to have a declaration of poverty and pauperism at-portance and great consequence to Scottached to the getting of it. Notwithstanding that the hon. Gentleman had referred to free education in Edinburgh, he (Mr. Anderson) did not believe, if free education in Edinburgh was being well done now, those responsible for it had anything whatever to fear from the Commission that had been appointed. He believed wherever good work was being done no Governing Body would have anything to dread; but he thought it would have been a scandal if they had exempted from the scope of the Bill two of the largest institutions in ScotlandHeriot's and Hutcheson's Hospitals-mittees prevented him from taking an because they happened to be working under Acts of Parliament of their own. It was, he thought, of great importance, not only to the people of Edinburgh and Glasgow, but to Scotland generally, that these two great institutions should be placed within the purview of a Commission of this kind. Other institutions would have had a good right to complain if these two institutions had been exempted from it. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the skill and patience with which he had engineered this Bill through Parliament, and upon the character of the Commission appointed to do the work. He looked forward with great hope to much good being done on that Commission. He was aware that objection had been taken to the appointment of Lord Balfour of Burleigh as Chairman of the Commission. He did not share in that objection at all. When a man was appointed to a public office, he did not think they should ask what were his politics or what was his Church. If it were a political appointment that was being given him, he would then ask about his Mr. Anderson active part in the discussion on this Bill. He trusted, therefore, that the House would permit him to say a few words in regard to it before it went to "another place." The chief opposition to the Bill in Committee was based upon the supposition that it would interefere with the free education now existing in Scotland. He, however, thought the Bill, as it had emerged from Committee, must have removed very much of the danger which was apprehended on that score. He believed, indeed, that the friends of free education would have reason to congratulate themselves that the institutions which it was proposed to leave out were left in the Bill. The hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) had spoken as if the effect of the Bill would be to crush the free schools in Edinburgh. If that had been the purpose of the Bill, he (Mr. Lyon Playfair) certainly would have asked someone to take his place in the Chair, in order to allow him to protect the interests of free education in its best sense. He believed the schools in Edinburgh were doing excellent work. He had visited, he thought, nearly all of them, and seen the work they performed. | the question of free education established He thought it was quite possible to pre- by Acts of Parliament, and regretted serve these schools in a free state, largely that he was unable to do so. He was in the interests of the poor, and yet to astonished to find that the right hon. grade some of these schools and link Gentleman, who declined to take the them together, so that the poor could responsibility of altering founders' wills attain what was the essence of Scotch made 100 years ago, should now be ateducation, and which had enabled the tacking the dispositions made by Acts Scotchman to prosper in all parts of the of Parliament in recent years. It was world-namely, to go from the gutter more than likely that an Act of Parliaupwards to any sphere of life he desired. ment framed in recent years would It would be possible, he believed, to better conform the intention of the have schools so that some of them might founder to the wants of the time than a give higher and more technical educa- strict observance of the letter of the tion, useful to the poorer classes, while original endowment. He very much the free schools were not interfered with. agreed with what the hon. Member for As it was, the intellectual mind of any Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst) had said, and country was never too great-only about he endorsed his opinion, that there were 7 per cent of the population seemed men to be found in the ranks of the fitted to go through such higher schools working classes who were quite capable as he hoped to see established and rise to of discharging the duties of Commisbetter positions-but where there were sioners under this Bill. Perhaps with these intellectual minds, it was of the regard to this matter-and it was really greatest importance that they should be very much a working man's questionenabled to make their way from the they would have made better Commislowest to the highest position. Scotland sioners than any other. He was quite would have been nothing in the past, if sure that in connection with it the name that had not been the real essence of its of his Predecessor (Mr. M'Laren), who educational system. The Governors of had done so much for education in ScotHeriot's Hospital had shown their desire land, and who possessed so fully the conto promote technical education in con- fidence of the country, would be held in nection with the Watt Institution, and lasting honour in the House. He should with the bursaries in connection with the not oppose the third reading of the Bill; Universities; and he was sure that after but he desired to record his protest the first heat of controversy had subsided, against the refusal of the Government, it would be recognized that the purpose in dealing with the matter, to recognize of the Bill, in providing a graded educa- and preserve the popular government tion, would serve in the highest degree of Heriot's Hospital, which had been so the interests of the poor in Edinburgh. admirably directed towards the promoHe believed the same remarks would tion of education among the poor. Many apply to the Glasgow endowments as of his constituents thought the Bill would very possibly affect injuriously their educational interest. It contemplated a diversion of funds from one sort of education to another, and, therefore, from one class to another; but though that had been denied by the right hon. Gentleman, they had not got specific provisions to the effect they desired, but only verbal assurances from the right hon. Gentleman; and he could not allow that opportunity to pass without again presenting his views as to the operation of the Bill as it at present stood. well. MR. BUCHANAN said, he desired to correct a statement which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) had made twice over-namely, that the Governors of Heriot's Hospital had asked to be excepted from the operation of this Bill. He (Mr. Buchanan) was aware, he thought, of all the steps that had been taken with regard to Heriot's Hospital, and he could say that that question had never been raised. What they had contended for was, that if free primary education was to be protected under the Bill, the protection should extend to the most efficient free schools in Scotland, which the Heriot Schools admittedly were. He had intended to move an Amendment on the Preamble, to raise MR. HENDERSON said, he wished to bring before the House a matter which was of very great interest to the burgh he represented, with the view of obtaining an expression of opinion from Commission a noble Lord who was, politically and ecclesiastically, out of sympathy with the vast majority of the people of Scotland. The people of Scotland looked upon the Bill and anticipated the proceedings of the Commission with a great deal of interest and anxiety; and while he thought it was only to have been expected that Lord Balfour of Burleigh should be one of the Commissioners, he must say there would have been much greater confidence if the Government had appointed as Chairman a gentleman who, at least, was in sympathy, politically and ecclesiastically, with the majority of the people. the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) and the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate as to how it would be affected by the Bill. An Act of Parliament was passed very recently—indeed, it received the Royal Assent only a few weeks ago -for the re-organization of Dundee High School, and a very large endowment of about £20,000 was given on the passing of that Act for the purposes of higher education by one of their citizens. In consequence, however, of smaller endowments which that school enjoyed, of a much earlier date, by Section 9 of the Bill now before the House, the Act which passed only a few weeks ago would come under the scope and purview of the Commission which would be appointed under the Act. Naturally there was a very great deal of anxiety in the new Governing Body recently constituted, that that which had been so recently done should not be so speedily upset; and he hoped those promoting this Bill on the Front Bench would give some assurance that in any future proceedings they would have the support of the Education Department. He thought that the constitution of the Commission would have been greatly improved if a representative of the working class had been placed on it; and he also thought that the constitution of the Commission would have been further improved if there were more representatives of the class who had furnished the endowments. There were several noble Lords upon it, and though he did not object to that, he believed it was a fact that there was not a single noble Lord who had given any gifts for education in Scotland. These endowments came almost exclusively, if not altogether, from the middle class in Scotland; and he thought they ought to have had a stronger representation of the class who had furnished the endowments on the Commission. He could not allow the question of the constitution of the Commission to pass without remarking on the nomination of Lord Balfour of Burleigh as Chairman. He was not going to say-and, indeed, he could not sayanything against the noble Lord as an educationist; but he would say that, in the present state of public opinion in Scotland, it was a most unwise and impolitic thing on the part of the Government to appoint as Chairman of that Mr. Henderson MR. C. S. PARKER said, he believed the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Henderson) was right in saying that, legally and technically, it would be within the power of the Commissioners to propose a scheme for the alteration of the recent Act of Parliament; but setting aside the consideration that Parliament itself would probably interfere to prevent that, he thought they might safely rely on the Commissioners who had been appointed, and on the Education Department, and individually on his right hon. Friend (Mr. Mundella), to prevent any such reversal of recent legislation, especially when so large an endowment had been handsomely bestowed by Mr. Harris, of Dundee, on the faith of that Act of Parliament. He should like to say a word on the question of free education, upon which the debates on this Bill had very much revolved. He supposed the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) agreed with what he (Mr. C. S. Parker) believed was the general opinion of Scotland on this point-that at all events, so far as free education was given, it should not be of such a character as to tend to pauperize the recipients, and make them feel as if they were in a different position from their more independent neighbours. The hon. Member for Glasgow apparently looked to a development which seemed to him (Mr. C. S. Parker) still far off in the future-namely, general gratuitous education, as in the United States. In the meantime, the recommendation of the Commission on which he served was this-not by any means to put a stop to free education, but to put some check on what had been called indiscriminate free education. The mis chief was done by making gratuitous seen the propriety, and the necessity, he education not general, but indiscrimi- might almost say, of giving the Scottish nate. It ought to be discriminate in Members that short period on Wednesone or other of two ways. Either it day, in addition to the Saturday preshould be applied for the benefit of viously, for Committee; and certainly parents who really were unable to pro- Scottish Members had not made an unvide education for their children, or it reasonable use of the time, when, within should be applied for the encouragement three hours, they had accomplished two of children to industry, and for retain- stages of a Bill, which, however much ing at school the small percentage of they might differ in opinion, he believed children who had exceptionally good would be looked upon throughout Scotabilities, and whom it was the interest of land as a very important contribution to the State to bring on to higher standards. the welfare of the whole people of the He believed the interests of free educa- country. tion would be practically safe in the hands of the Commissioners. It ought to be known that the one Member of the former Inquiry Commission who had been placed on this Executive Commission-the hon. Member for the Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ramsay) — had always been the most vigilant to protect the interests of the poorer classes. Indeed, some of his Colleagues thought he went, perhaps, too far in his wish still to apply old endowments to the relief of the education rate, in those localities where the ratepayers had long been accustomed to get education free. He wished further to say that, however much difference of opinion there might have been on this and other contested issues, they could not but recognize with gratitude the zeal and energy and conciliatory conduct of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, and the perseverance with which he had striven on now for three years to bring the Bill to a favourable issue. To him chiefly it was due that the measure had not again fallen through. If they had not had the short time given to them that they had that day, he thought the Members from Scotland generally would have felt that they had just cause for complaint. It was now ten years since the Commission was appointed to inquire into these matters; it was seven years since it reported, and it was three years since the Bill had occupied a prominent place in the Speech from the Throne; and they should have felt considerable resentment if they had been sent back once more to Scotland to explain to their constituents that from pressure of other Business the Bill had made no further progress. Whereas now a word of thanks was due also to the Government that, in the great difficulties they had had that Session, they had VOL. CCLXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] MR. J. A. CAMPBELL said, he had great pleasure in joining with the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) in having carried the Bill successfully through the House. At the same time, he desired, most emphatically, to protest against a remark of his hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Henderson) in reference to Lord Balfour of Burleigh-namely, that he was out of sympathy with the people of Scotland both ecclesiastically and politically. He (Mr. J. A. Campbell) had the honour of knowing that Nobleman, and had the privilege of serving with him on the late Commission; and he wished to say that his hon. Friend was quite incorrect in saying that Lord Balfour was out of sympathy ecclesiastically with the people of Scotland. He believed in that respect he was emphatically in sympathy with the people of Scotland. As to his political relations, he could assure his hon. Friend, having sat with his Lordship on the late Commission, that politics had nothing whatever to do with the work of an Educational Commission. The late Commission was presided over by Lord Moncreiff, who was a decided politician, and they had as a Member of the Commission Lord Balfour, who was also a decided politician; and he could appeal to his Colleagues that, on that Commission, they heard and thought nothing of politics either of Church or State. With regard to Lord Balfour, it would, in his opinion, have been an extraordinary omission if he, being nominated on the Commission, had not been appointed Chairman, for he had experience which no other Member had, and an extensive knowledge of educational subjects, and a thorough and hearty interest in the object of the Bill. T MR. DICK-PEDDIE, as one of those MR. SEXTON said, the information Members who had taken an active part they had with respect to this proposal in opposing certain provisions in this was of the scantiest possible character, Bill, desired to say, before the Bill left and it was desirable that they should the House, that he trusted that it would have all the information in the possesbe carried out, not as it might be under sion of the Government in reference to its own provisions, but in the spirit of the the circumstances now before them. He speeches which had just been made by might point out that the cost of the Royal the Vice President of the Council and Irish Constabulary had of late years been the Chairman of Committees. If it were largely increased. The original Estiso carried out, he had no doubt it would mate for 1882-3 was £1,332,146, includwork well. He only regretted that the ing £78,000 Extra Pay and Allowances. Bill itself did not embody the spirit of Owing, however, to supplemental grants these speeches. Had it done so, he, for for increased duties, the total charge on one, would have had no objection to make the Public Revenue for this purpose was to it. He trusted the Commissioners now £1,632,000, which, he believed, was would work it in the way which the Vice nearly double what it was a few years President and the Chairman of Com- ago. He should like to know what admittees had indicated as that in which ditional burden it was proposed to place they wished it to work, and that it would on the public with reference to this extra be found that the fears which it had ex- pay, and what was the justification for cited would be disappointed. He wished so very considerable an increase? He to state what had chiefly influenced him was aware that the processes of resignain the part he had taken with reference tion and enlistment had lately been going to this Bill. He was a citizen of Edin- on in the Force at a great rate; and it burgh, and having for many years been would be well for the House to know engaged in a profession which brought how many resignations had taken place him into close contact with the working during the last three years, and what classes of that city, he knew the great was the cause assigned for those resigvalue which they attached to Heriot's nations, so that they should be then in Schools, and the benefits they had de- a position to say whether they were of a rived from them; and he looked with temporary or a permanent character, and great jealousy on anything that seemed whether the conditions of the Service had fitted in the slightest way to trench on been so much changed as to make an the working of these schools for the increase of pay desirable. The position public benefit. He hoped they would be of the Royal Irish Constabulary was exdealt with in the way in which the Chair-tremely critical; and he would like to man of Committees had suggested, and in that case he, for one, would have no fault to find with the action of the Commissioners. If he had once or twice during the discussion on the Bill spoken with some warmth of the President of the Council, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he did not do so from any personal feeling, but only in consequence of his zeal in the interests of free elementary education. Question put, and agreed to. ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Speaker do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. Trevelyan.) know the strength of the Police Force, especially in the county of Limerick, over which Mr. Clifford Lloyd had control. As regarded that officer, it was said he was to succeed Colonel Brackenbury as Assistant Under Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. If that rumour was true, he wished to know whether it was the fact, as stated that morning in The Times, that the Police Force in County Limerick, over which Mr. Clifford Lloyd presided, was almost bordering on a state of mutiny; that in nearly every county the police had asked for an increase of pay; that they had been offered 6d. a-day extra, and had indignantly refused it; and that in Clare, Kerry, and Cork Counties there was among the police an agitation that demanded the immediate attention of the authorities? The position of the Irish Members was, of course, peculiar in regard to this question, as they had often contended that |