ents abused and ill-treated. He thought the Home Secretary in former times, when he had no case, must have received instructions to abuse the plaintiff's attorney, and no doubt, in the Inferior Courts, he had carried out these instructions. He had shown his capacity for vituperation by abusing the hon. Member for Dungarvan in a manner worthy of Billingsgate. On the 15th of June, when an objection was raised to a clause in the Bill then under consideration, the Home Secretary made an announcement which, he said, he hoped would facilitate the passing of the clause. Having obtained his purpose and every facility for the passing of the clause, he had paid no further attention to the matter. If he had deliberately violated his pledge, or if he had made that pledge without any knowledge that it would be carried out, he was guilty of very improper conduct; and he hoped some statement would be made with reference to the violation of that promise. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is imputing improper motives to the Home Secretary. He has no right to do that. MR. CALLAN said, he imputed no motives whatever. He simply said this pledge was made by the Home Secretary, and it had been violated. He was imputing no motive, and he was not sufficiently a metaphysician to know how a statement of facts could be considered an imputation. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member said the Home Secretary was bound to explain something he had not fulfilled. He then imputed an improper motive to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am entirely indifferent to any imputation of motive the hon. Member may make upon myself. MR. CALLAN said, he simply mentioned that the pledge had not been fulfilled, but violated. That was the fact, and he only asked the Home Secretary to review the proclamation of County Louth, and to reconsider whether there was any ground for that procla mation. MR. BLAKE said, a very important portion of this Vote was now reached, and he thought it might be advisable to report Progress; but before moving that he wished to address a few inquiries to Mr. Callan the Home Secretary, in order to ascertain what had been done, or was proposed to be done, in the matter to which he would now draw attention. The next Vote related to the Irish lunatic asylums, the controlling body of which was, perhaps, one of the most important Departments in Ireland, on account of the great number of unfortunate people in Ireland who were confined in asylums in Ireland, and also because Ireland, in common with other parts of the United Kingdom, showed a considerable increase in the number of lunatics. As the House was probably aware, the entire support of the pauper lunatics in Ireland fell upon the occupying tenants, and it was most essential that the chief department should be carried on vigorously. The head of the Department, Dr. Nugent, was now 90 years of age, and the second Inspector was considerably over 70 years of age. He submitted that it was not right that a gentleman nearly 90 years of age, and another nearly 70 years of age, should continue to have the entire control of this important Department. From time to time assurances had been given that there should be a recasting of the Lunacy Board in Ireland; but years had gone by, and nothing whatever had been done in that direction. He had considerable fault to find with the mode in which the administration of the lunatic asylums was carried on, and since he had returned to Parliament many things he formerly complained of he found still remained unremedied. He asserted positively, though with perfect kindness to the two gentlemen he had named, that the time had arrived when they should retire, but upon as liberal terms as possible. The administration of so important a Department as this ought not to continue in the present hands. Younger men, and men who were better acquainted with modern methods of carrying out a curative system, should be substituted; and he respectfully asked the Chief Secretary to give some information as to what the Government proposed to do in regard to recasting and remodelling the administration of this department. MR. TREVELYAN: With regard to the remarks of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Blake) about the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums, I shall certainly consider it my duty in the next five or six months to claimed. In the county of Monaghan there was one barony which was eminently Catholic which was proclaimed; but the other portions were not proclaimed. Every Catholic portion of Monaghan and Louth was proclaimed, while the Protestant portions were not. How was it that other counties in Ireland were not proclaimed? When the next General Election came, the opinion of the people as to the way in which this Act was administered would be shown, and every supporter of the Government which unjustly administered the Act would be visited with political annihilation. inquire into the Public Departments of Ireland. I earnestly hope that in his remarks the hon. Member did not foreshadow his intention to move to report Progress before this Vote is passed. With regard to the remarks of the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan), I cannot be answerable for every word from the lips of every person in connection with the Prevention of Crime Bill; but I fully recognize the general gist of the observations the hon. Member quoted from the Home Secretary. I likewise fully acknowledge that the intention of the Lord Lieutenant as to the application of this case was something of the nature to which the hon. Member refers. His intention was, that particular districts should return under the ordinary law when all chance of serious disorder had been extinguished. MR. CALLAN: No disorder ever existed in this district. MR. TREVELYAN: It is impossible to apply it to a particular district, and it is impossible to give to Parliament the reasons why the Lord Lieutenant applies a particular clause to a particular district. The more so as the Judges' Charges are not sufficient evidence for and against the existence of crime in a particular district. The Lord Lieutenant has very many opportunities of knowing what the dangers are, and sources which cannot come into open Court; but I can assure the hon. Member that, in the spirit of the original intention, the cases of different counties will be carefully inquired into, and certainly, if we consider that there is no sufficient reason for keeping a particular county or town under the proclamation, we shall remove the proclamation. I hope that, after this protracted and certainly very interesting discussion, we may now be allowed to take the Vote. MR. BLAKE said, that on the promise of the Chief Secretary to make personal inquiries into the Departments in Ireland, and the Lunatic Asylums Department amongst them, he would not press for Progress; but he must respectfully warn the right hon. Gentleman that if something was not done before the Session in February next, he should bring the whole question of lunatic asylums under consideration. What the right hon. Gentleman undertook to do he was sure would be done; and, therefore, he was satisfied with the as fisheries. In consequence of the Prime Minister having absorbed all the days of private Members, he had been obliged to move for the discharge of the Irish Fisheries Bill. He hoped, therefore, he should receive from the Chief Secretary a similar assurance with regard to the fisheries to that respecting the lunatic asylums. There was one most important matter to which he wished to draw attention. Frequent representations had been made by the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries, during the last 15 years, as to the necessity of having an investigation respecting the fund for carrying MR. CALLAN said, the county to out the fisheries. He could positively which he had referred had never been-state that, even if a moderate expenat least, for the last 10 years-in a state justifying the application of any repressive measures beyond the ordinary law. He knew that the Chief Secretary had not been able to attend to these matters himself, and the Lord Lieutenant was dependent upon advisers who knew the district. The county of Down, which joined Louth, was not proclaimed. In the county of Armagh two Catholic baronies were proclaimed; but the remainder of the county was not pro diture had been incurred, the catches of fish would have been increased fiftyfold. It had been proved from the Reports of Inspectors of Fisheries that vast catches of fish had been lost to fishermen in consequence of their not having vessels to send out to bring the fish ashore. He earnestly trusted the right hon. Gentleman, during the Recess, would devote some of his time to investigating the condition of the Irish Fisheries. The right hon. Gentleman's Predecessor in Office (Mr. W. E. Forster) undertook to | a Return periodically of the number of do so, and he did so. Unfortunately arrests made, how soon they were for the fisheries, he left Office before he brought before the magistrate, and, if was able to give the House the benefit they were not discharged by the single of the investigations he made on the magistrate, how soon they were brought subject. He trusted the right hon. Gen- before the double-barrelled Court, and tleman would be good enough to give what the result had been. the fisheries a part of his attention during the Recess. MR. FINDLATER said, he understood that an official in Ireland must be in office 20 years before he was entitled to one-third of his salary as pension; while in England an official could retire, after 15 years' service, upon two-thirds of his salary. That was a great injustice, which ought to be remedied as soon as possible. MR. COURTNEY: It is not so. MR. HEALY said, that with regard to the Prevention of Crime Act, and the Curfew Clause especially, he would like to know whether the police had been instructed to send up to Dublin Castle a list of all the arrests made, and the results of the inquiries subsequent to the arrests? Was there any objection to give the House every month, or every quarter, a Return showing the people arrested, the result of the prosecutions before the magistrate, and then before the two stipendiary magistrates? He was sure the right hon. Gentleman had no wish that people should be arrested without proper cause; but if newspaper reports were to be believed men had been arrested unnecessarily. For instance, in Rosscrea a man was standing outside his own door, and the police told him to go in; he said he would go in when he liked, whereupon the police took him off to gaol, and kept him there for 24 hours. Now, the Act was passed for the prevention of crime, and he could not believe it was a crime for a man to stand outside his own door, even in Ireland. It was a crime to stand about under suspicious circumstances; but, unfortunately, the police were to be the judges of the suspicious circumstances. He would like to ask the Chief Secretary whether he would issue a Circular to the police telling them where they had evidently taken a wrong view of matters, and telling them also what it was they were expected to do? Certainly it could never be intended that a man should be locked up for 24 hours for simply standing outside his own door. He trusted there would be granted Mr. Blake MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he noticed an item for allowances to SubInspectors of Irish Constabulary, and allowances for 32 sub-constables. Now, these men were detached from the general Police Force; and he wanted to ask the Chief Secretary whether he could say it was a fact that the absence of these men from their duty in their several counties imposed a charge upon those counties in respect of extra police? MR. TREVELYAN said, that with regard to the hon. Member for Waterford's (Mr. Blake's) remarks on the fisheries, he sympathized with the hon. Member for being obliged, on account of the pressure of circumstances, to withdraw the Bill, in which he took so much interest. He could only repeat what he had previously said that the question of the Irish Fisheries should have his best consideration. In reference to the question raised by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy), he might say that all the arrests made under the 11th section of the Prevention of Crime Act were reported under various headings. If a man were taken up under suspicious circumstances and got 14 days hard labour, it would be reported in the usual course. He presumed that such a man would have had some disguise about him, or some weapon, which would cause the suspicion. All the cases were reported in full to the Chief Secretary's Office, and a very careful watch was kept upon them. MR. HEALY: The right hon. Gentleman says hard labour; they have no power to give hard labour; but simply to imprison. MR. TREVELYAN said, he would look into that case. With regard to the last remark of the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) about the police who were transferred from one county to another, he had to say that if the county from which they were transferred required to have its quota of police made up, it would be made up before any extra police could be charged for. The county into which they were sent would, he presumed, be charged with extra police if it was so ordered. MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that a county would require to have its quota made up before extra police could be charged upon it. When last year he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) maintained there was no power to charge for extra police until the quota of the county was made up, the Chief Secretary (Mr. W. E. Forster) said the Government had such right, and insisted upon using it. very unwilling, during this Session, to make any absolute promise as to the Returns to be presented next Session. Certainly, when the time came, he was disposed to consider very favourably the suggestion of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy). MR. FINDLATER said, the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury said, a moment or two ago, that the statement he (Mr. Findlater) made with regard to the officers of lunatic asylums in Ireland was not correct. Now, he found that on the 11th of July the Chief Secretary for Ireland was asked by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) whether it was not the case that officials in England were entitled to retire, after 15 years' service, on two-thirds of their salary; whereas the same officials in Ireland had to serve 20 years, and then could only retire on one-third of their salary. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary stated that the facts were correctly set forth in the question, and that the matter was regulated by the Superannuation Act of 1859. On referring to the Act he found it was the fact that a man must serve 40 years in Ireland before he could receive two MR. HEALY said, that in reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), a distinct pledge was given by the Chief Secretary that extra police would not be charged on the county until the full quota was made up. With regard to the question raised by himself, he was sorry to say he must trouble the right hon. Gentleman again, because he had not answered it. He did not ask him whether returns were made up to the Chief Secretary; but what he wanted to know was whether the arrests and the results of them would be reported to Parliament? Was the right hon. Gentleman prepared to present to Parlia-thirds of his salary on retirement. ment periodically a Return showing the number of arrests made under suspicious circumstances, how soon the person was brought before the magistrate, what the result was before the single magistrate, whether the man was referred to two stipendiary magistrates, and then what was the punishment awarded? He would like to know what suspicious circumstances were; but, of course, he could not ask too much from the Irish police. MR. BIGGAR said, he thought the question raised by his hon. Friend (Mr. Healy) deserved a reply at the hands of the Chief Secretary or the Attorney General for Ireland. MR. HEALY said, he presumed that the reason why no answer was made was that hard labour had been imposed where there was no power to impose it. MR. TREVELYAN said, that imprisonment with hard labour could be awarded under the 11th section in conjunction with the 21st section. In the course of the debates upon the Act in its progress through the House, it was laid down that certain Returns were to be presented to Parliament. He was VOL. CCLXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] MR. COURTNEY said, he did not question the fact with regard to Ireland, but in regard to England. Question put. The Committee divided :-Ayes 94; Noes 4: Majority 90. (Div. List, No. 313.) (3.) £1,203, to complete the sum for the Charitable Donations and Bequests Office, Ireland. MR. SEXTON said, he thought they ought now to report Progress. They had been sitting for 10 hours, and, although the number of Votes taken had not been large, they had disposed of several important subjects. The Vote for the Chief Secretary's Office, considering the present state of affairs and the recent enactment, was one of considerable importance, and the Government might congratulate themselves upon having obtained it in so little time. He did not suppose there was any objection to the Vote for the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests; and hon. Members would be glad to let the Government take it without discussion, if they 2 A would postpone the remaining Votes of respect of any services performed under the Class. the measure-namely, in page 6, line 19, after "Company," to insert " or any Company or person owning any steam vessel." Vote agreed to. MR. TREVELYAN moved to report Progress; but hoped that for the rest of the Session hon. Gentlemen would allow the Committee to make substantial progress. Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,”—(Mr. Trevelyan,) -put, and agreed to. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. MR. J. G. TALBOT said, there seemed to be some misunderstanding as to the hour of Sitting to-morrow, some hon. Members being under the impression that it was 4 o'clock, and others that it was 2 o'clock. MR. COURTNEY said, he thought it had been decided that there should be no more 2 o'clock Sittings. Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 13 (Application of Act to steam vessels). MR. PENDER said, he wished to move an Amendment requiring steam vessels carrying on regular trade between certain ports of the United Kingdom to carry parcels at a remuneration to be decided by agreement or by arbitration. Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 7, after "arrive," insert "and munication between a port in the United Kingwhere any steam vessel carries on regular comdom and any other port or place within the United Kingdom, and such steam vessel is neither owned nor worked by any Railway Company, the Company or person or persons by whom such steam vessel is owned or worked shall, from and after the passing of this Act, be bound to convey parcels, and the remuneration due for the services rendered by such steam vessel, in respect of the conveyance of parcels, shall be determined by agreement between the Postmaster General and the Company or pervessel, or, in case of difference, such remunerason or persons owning or working such steam tion shall be determined by arbitration, and the amount so determined shall be paid direct to such Company or person or persons, and the not, in respect of that conveyance, be deemed parcels conveyed by such steam vessel shall to be parcels conveyed by Railway."- (Mr. Pender.) Question, "That those words be there inserted, put, and agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Remaining clauses agreed to. First Schedule agreed to. Second Schedule. MR. J. G. TALBOT wished to ask the Postmaster General, what arrangement would be made to deal with the very large increase of labour that would fall upon the shoulders of that ill-paid class of public servants, the letter carriers, when this Bill became law? The work of these men would not only be increased in carrying parcels to the persons to |