its power to unduly raise prices or to oppress the people there should te some tribunal other than the courts, because it is more effective to say to that combination, "This that you are now doing is wrong and illegal and must be stopped at once."

Senator CUMMINS. I inferred that that was what you meant when I made the suggestion a few moments ago. You really do believe, then, that we should give this commission, or some commission, the same power over coal that we have given the Interstate Commerce Commission over railroad rates?

Mr. VINSON. I do not believe, Senator Cummins, that it would be necessary at all to give this commission the power to say to the public, "You must pay a dollar and ten cents a ton for your coal for the next 12 months." Every coal man in the country would be delighted if that sort of a power were vested in the commission, but to a certain extent you would do away with the competitive factor in trade, which I think ought to be preserved up to a certain point.

Senator CUMMINS. Do not let us shrink now from the difficulties. Somewhere along in that power you would give this commission power to reduce a price if it was thought to be too high, would you

not?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir; stop it.

Senator CUMMINS. Precisely. You would give it the right to say or the power to say, if it could, that $1.25 a ton for coal is too high, and you must cut down your price.

Mr. VINSON. In other words, you are using a combination in violation of law. You are unnaturally raising the price to a point where it ought not to be.

Senator CUMMINS. We have a law which says that railroad rates should be fair and reasonable, and I think that was the common law before our statutes.

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator CUMMINS. We have no law, either statutory law or common law, which declares that the price of coal shall be fair and reasonable, and your proposition would involve a statute which would declare that the price of coal shall be fair and reasonable, and this commission would necessarily be given the authority to determine what is fair and reasonable. That is the end, is it not?

Mr. VINSON. That is the final conclusion.

Senator CUMMINS. And that means that the whole business of the country shall be put in the hands of the Government, in substantially the same way that the railroads or the common carriers are now in the hands of the Government?

Mr. VINSON. It is either that, Senator, or let the economic laws have their full force and power, and that means a complete destruction of the small business man. The Government, in my judgment, in some form or other, either by a commission or otherwise, must take care of the poor man; I mean keep him from being oppressed. Senator CUMMINS. The Government must take care, according to your plan, of the big man, too?

Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think the big man, as long as he does his business in a legitimate way, should receive the same measure of protection under the law as the little one.

Senator CUMMINS. Precisely. But your plan-if you have definitely suggested it-that if the big men acquire enough power to

raise the price of coal above a fair and reasonable point, that he should be regulated and his prices brought down to a fair and reasonable point?

Mr. VINSON. That necessarily follows.

Senator CUMMINS. So that in approaching this question we have to assume, I think, that we must either let competition do its work or the Government must undertake to fix the price of all the commodities sold in the United States?

Mr. VINCENT. Indirectly that is what the Government is doing now in the interstate commerce law, as well as it attempts to enforce the Sherman antitrust law.

Senator CUMMINS. I know it; and your idea is to put the remaining business of the United States in substantially the same relation to the Government that the business of the common carrier has been put?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir; there is only one of two things to be done about it; first, to take the bridle off and let competition destroy what it will, or do what it will, or else regulate that competition, to rather regulate the power that large aggregations of capital and industry can use to the detriment of the public at large.

Senator CUMMINS. You have thought a great deal upon the subject. Let me suggest a restriction which it is possible to put upon competition that might meet your fear of its destructive force. Suppose you declare that any seller of coal, any producer of coal should sell it at the same price to every purchaser at the mines, so that if he lowered his price to one he must lower his price to all; that is, to put upon that business the same rule that has been put upon transportation, that there must be no discrimination; do you not think that would prevent the ruinous competition of which we have heard so much?

Mr. VINSON. Well, if you had a commission to say what that price should be.

Senator CUMMINS. No

Mr. VINSON. Just let the operator fix the price himself.
Senator CUMMINS. Precisely.

Mr. VINSON. I think the operation of that would be that the man who is selling, or rather producing, from two to three million tons of coal a year, he would understand and know that if he fixed his price this year at 6 or 8 or 10 cents a ton of its cost to him, or rather limit his profit to that amount, that he would get all of the trade from the small man; he would run his mine full, and the little ones would have to run at more loss or have to go out of business. They would have to go out of business. Next year he would raise the price when he got rid of the little ones. I believe that would be the operation

of it.

Senator CUMMINS. That is assuming that the big concern has no competition except the little concern. There are a good many big concerns, are there not, that compete with each other?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator CUMMINS. On somewhat even terms?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator CUMMINS. And unless they do something to enable the little concerns to reduce their cost of production or sale or do something that will enable them to make an agreement by which the price

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shall be held up so that they can sell at a profit, they will have to go out of the business.

Mr. VINSON. There is no doubt about that at all.

Senator CUMMINS. But in their place or places there would arise large concerns that would compete with the existing concerns on even terms, would there not?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir; that is true.

Senator CUMMINS. And do you not think that it is economically required that he shall allow the business to grow large enough so that the unit of economy in each case can be employed?

Mr. VINSON. I think so.

Senator CUMMINS. And so in a business that is adapted to being carried on in a large way, there does not seem to be much place for the small man anyhow.

Mr. VINSON. No; not as at present organized, but the small man ought to be given the power to go to work and combine with other small men in the same situation that he is in, and make himself a big man, so that he can really compete with the other man. That is what I claim the small man is entitled to.

Senator CUMMINS. I think so too, so long as competition is preserved.

Mr. VINSON. Yes.

Senator CUMMINS. Pardon me for having taken so much time. I have asked all the questions that I desire to ask

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Newlands, you may interrogate.

Senator NEWLANDS. Mr. Vincent, I understand that your bill applies to coal mining only?

Mr. VINSON. To coal mining only.

Senator NEWLANDS. And you propose that a commission be organized to supervise both the operation of mining and the selling of coal?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator NEWLANDS. For how many other classes of business do you think a similar claim could be made with propriety?

Mr. VINSON. I never took occasion to run them over in my mind. I should think the steel and iron business; possibly the oil business, another; the lumber business, perhaps. I am not familiar with the extent of the other commercial enterprises except in a general way. I know they do a large business. I had this idea, that the men who are skilled in a particular line of business could give a much better administration of that business than anyone who was not acquainted with it.

Senator NEWLANDS. Obviously. But I wish to call your attention to the number of commissions required in order to cover adequately the other businesses and vocations of the country that would require the same regulations as that.

Mr. VINSON. I have no doubt, Senator, that it would require a great many.

Senator NEWLANDS. But you have not thought of how many? Mr. VINSON. No, sir; I have not gone over it. I do not know. Senator NEWLANDS. You would have the same principle control with reference to each one of them, that experts in each particular business should be put upon the commission, with a view to supervision and regulation?

Mr. VINSON. I think you would get better results.

Senator NEWLANDS. Now, your next proposition, as I understand it, is that if both State and interstate commerce were engaged in by the same instrumentality, and the National Government enacts and passes a law providing for the regulation of the interstate part of that commerce, that thereupon the power over the State part of that commerce is extinguished.

Mr. VINSON. Yes; that is if either of them interfere with the other; I mean if the State part of it is so intermingled with the interstate part of it that they can not be segregated and separated, they may be distinguished from each other.

Senator NEWLANDS. Then the full exercise of the national power in the regulation of interstate commerce relating to these businesses and occupations, and covering their operation and sale, would necessarily oust the jurisdiction of the States over the State part of that commerce wherever their regulations conflicted with those of the United States.

Mr. VINSON. I think that would follow necessarily.

Senator NEWLANDS. How do you reconcile that fact that the State sovereignty over State commerce under our system of government is just as complete as that of the National Government over interstate commerce?

Mr. VINSON. I believe, Senator, that the distinction you make there has been adverted to in the various opinions by the Supreme Court, and the court has held that the national sovereignty must be supreme wherever there is any conflict at all.

Senator NEWLANDS. Do you understand that that has been held by the Supreme Court or by some of the lower courts?

Mr. VINSON. Well, it has been particularly held by the lower courts, and I think you will find, by referring to my brief, that it has been held by the Supreme Court.

Senator NEWLANDS. Something of that kind was held by Judge Sanborn, I believe, in the Kansas City Railroad case.

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir; he held that in those rate cases.

Senator NEWLANDS. But that decision has aroused a protest in the various States.

Mr. VINSON. Very serious protests.

Senator NEWLANDS. And I believe they propose to appear in the case in the Supreme Court and contest that view.

Mr. VINSON. From the facts in that case it would look like the State regulation did interfere. Particularly I was interested in the coal part. It interfered with the shipment of coal from Superior, Wis., over into the State of Minnesota.

Senator NEWLANDS. Do you not think that the better theory would be, as long as that has not been determined by the Supreme Court and is still a matter of discussion, instead of endeavoring to assert the superiority of one sovereign over the other, to the extent of absolutely ousting the jurisdiction of the so-called lesser sovereign over a matter clearly intrusted to it under our system of government, that it would be better to organize commerce in each one of the States that will take into consideration the State part of the commerce and organize under the authority of the National Government a national commission or commissions to regulate interstate commerce and then

endeavor to bring those commissions into close harmony and cooperation by some system of exchange of theories, such as the Interstate Commerce Commission is now carrying on by annual conventions held at Washington, at which the commissioners of the various States railroad commissioners-meet with the national commissioners in convention?

Mr. VINSON. I have no doubt in the world that a policy of that kind would change a great many opinions that now exist, both with reference to the State power as well as the national power. I think a discussion of the kind you suggest, or conferences rather, would lead to good results. It seems to me that in the complex form of our industry, that so far as the economic proposition is concerned the State lines, as such, must in the nature of things be restricted more than we have been taught heretofore to believe that they ought to be. I was brought up in the State rights rule and I believe very largely in the power of the State. My convictions are based upon decisions of the court largely that have been rendered in the past 10 or 12 years.

Senator NEWLANDS. It seems to me that the tendency ought to be readjusted.

Mr. VINSON. It ought to be, since it is material for the growth of the country.

Senator NEWLANDS. Rather than repeat all our legislation we have got to submit to it if the courts so determine; but it seems to me that we should continue the contest until that is finally determined, or otherwise we simply have all the businesses or vocations in the country, and particularly the entire administration of the country, turned over to a centralized government at Washington, and that with the vast increase of population in this country the extension of the States eventually would be as large as France or Germany would be, and it would be a very cumbersome thing.

Mr. VINSON. It would necessarily, but it seems to me that so far as trade is concerned between the people of the different States, and that is really the very larger part of the trade of the country, that wherever State sovereignty interferes with that trade, or with the freedom of it, for any cause, the good of the country as a whole demands that State sovereignty should be surrendered to that incident to the national regulation and control, because otherwise we would have conflict of interest and destructive competition existing between the different States in the way of taxes and in the way of different rulings of State commissions, and your industries and manufactures will not get along in the smooth way that they would if you had a central body regulating it.

Senator NEWLANDS. Now, in your own State-West Virginia, I believe

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir; I live in West Virginia.

Senator NEWLANDS. Has there been any effort upon the part of your State government to cover this question to which you have referred? Have you any State commission?

Mr. VINSON. No, sir; we have not.

Senator NEWLANDS. Such as you propuse for the National Government?