change. No business corporation could succeed using th procedures and tools with which the Congress has been f

This challenge and our ability to meet it reflects directl bility of our legislative function. We freshmen Congressn that challenge and reform. And we urge our senior colle the example by acting now to control Federal spending ar the congressional budget process.

It is our constitutional duty, and we can do no less.
I am open to comments and questions.

Chairman WHITTEN. Thank you very much. I wish to als the Cochairman of the committee appreciation for the e and support you have given our getting out the interim feel highly gratified not only at your support, but report this report was adopted unanimously. I feel that that reflec hopes that we may get somewhere. The committee agreed do something and we were able to agree on the basic princ There are many factors that enter into these things. O is that however good the proposed solution may be it i enough unless you can get it adopted.

It is gratifying to see that we have so much support at the from the newer Members of the Congress. It at least g nucleus from which to start in getting something adopted improve the situation.

Mr. CONLAN. We realize what you have been doing. Mr. We know deep down in our heart it has to be done, but so any institution it takes a little bit of effort for some people t downfield blocking so the statesman can score those toucho we would like you to score those touchdowns with some suc Chairman WHITTEN. In case your colleagues want to submi statements we will accept them.

Mr. CONLAN. We have a couple of questions that have among some of the younger Members. For example, most o come out of State legislatures where we have gone through th process. We would urge you. Mr. Chairman, not to compro suggestions that will only complicate the process of pinni the responsibility.

We could see, out of reading the Interim Report, suggesti the Congress might be involved for 60 days early in the term on amounts of the budget, and every Congressman is gettin floor and pontificating in various ways, and pointing with p viewing with alarm, and we are bogged down from the be Any new capital outlay or new single amount of money for or public works or something of this nature is an individual is an individual matter for that year; but anything relatin increase or decrease in an agency or executive department's for that year-we are appalled at the committee structure her you go in and go hrou h a co-called authorization bill whic really authorizing a new program, it is only skimming the su whether the budget should go up or down. That is in the process within the appropriations bill for the operating bud the year. And it frees up these committees to really do some the overall system. Rather than having departmental ex parading up to one committee and parading up to another and time.

This may be too much to do

Chairman WHITTEN. I appreciate the comment from my colleague. I would point out here that the lead-off witness, Dr. Arthur Burns, Chairman of the Board of the Federal Reserve System, pointed to the experience of the States dealing with appropriations.

Many of the people on this committee have had State legislative experience. I was on the State ways and means committee for 2 years, and I picked a bad time, because it was at a time when we were initiating a sales tax.

There are many things to be learned. One of the things I could clearly see is that the shortness of the State sessions historically, at least, requires many things. Certainly we must deal with the problems of delay due to the annual authorization process.

One thing we are considering which offers some hope is to provide for a special Budget Committee with a fixed jurisdiction, with representation from the legislative, appropriations, and tax committees. They could begin to meet as early as November 15. If they could, as they have in the State legislatures, have the cooperation of Executive, they could begin to gather and analyze the budget information. When Congress convenes, the special budget committee would be in a position to move expeditiously. I have offered this suggestion to several wit

nesses.

Mr. CONLAN. Mr. Chairman, I think you are right on the line. When we converted to it and got our joint budget committee, we did not bring in Ways and Means for Finance and Revenue, we limited it to a joint committee of half of the House Appropriations Committee and half of the Senate Appropriations. You are absolutely right, when that joint committee, with its staff is working directly with the executive department and you mandate by law the executive department budget is going to be up here by the 10th of September, and when you know about it, then you can analyze it.

Chairman WHITTEN. I am glad you agree. There is no reason why any executive branch would hesitate in the least to cooperate with us in providing advance information.

You mentioned your experience in Arizona. This report, as you know, points out that only about 44 percent of the outlay budget comes before the Appropriations Committee. So I think that any committee we come out with here should also have representatives from the legislative committees.

Mr. CONLAN. I understand that, Mr. Whitten. I would keep in mind that maybe you don't have to give as much as you might think you might have to to some of the other legislative committees. Many of us, in talking with some middle seniority members, are of the feeling that what has been happening here-you know, as every bill comes from the floor, and when you have a tough Appropriations Committee of senior members who are fairly entrenched, who can act more like statesmen, rather than responding to the pressures from their district, many Congressmen here, in reality, would just as soon be off the hook on some of these, and refer them to various Appropriations Committees. I am sure you know the thinking of people quite well.

Chairman WHITTEN. I am glad to hear you say that. I think I created the wrong impression. I think among the many legislative committees there are many folks as economically conservative as you

and I. I think we need representation from those committ the full budgeting process.

I think when you try to make a change you need all of t can get; when you have three or four factions, you have fo to try to help do it.

Mr. Davis. On page 2 of your statement you do refer budget committee, composed of the Senate and House App Committees. As you know, in our Interim Report co budget committee was approved, but according to some co the chairman, Mr. Whitten, it contemplates having people the members of the Appropriations Committee serve on it der if there was any special significance to your limiting th ship to members of the Appropriations Committee.

Mr. CONLAN. Input needs to come obviously from both th department and the joint budget staff as to what your rever is. When you are going through appropriations, and that cial function, you can have some input, because you know are going for a certain amount with an overall operation you know either: one, it is going to require more taxes; or in a balanced budget; or three, result in a deficit with its o effect. And when the Congressmen have to vote on such responsibility is pinpointed then. You are going to get m control then of the appropriations process. Until that is I in one overall bill, I don't think some of the areas of reforms going to reach the level they need to. I don't think you need Means on such a joint budget committee in working up su lative budget because you can get that revenue input from citizens without having members.

What your political situation is is something else her course, Mr. Whitten has alluded to it. We have found in b fornia and other State uneasiness to bring in other commi

Mr. DAVIS. I think the problem we have here, I think nex percent of the expenditures of the Government are going before the Appropriations Committee. We have general reve ing, $6 billion. It was not only authorized but it was app out of the Ways and Means Committee.

We have numerous other programs that are not actually s the Appropriations Committee and I don't know how we are make really much progress by having this Budget Committee an Appropriations Committee matter.

In the past few years the appropriations leading to expe have been reduced something over $12 billion. That just haj be slightly less than the amount of the expenditures that ha through processes other than the appropriation process, and why I did question limiting the membership of this Budget Co to Appropriations Committee members.

Mr. CONLAN. Yes, I realize that, Mr. Davis, and you are of going to develop with your staff material, staff documentation used to do this for the Defense Department when I was a leg lobbyist about 18 years ago, and we had all of the documents every area, every category, and we used to keep it under to guard. It is the same thing on the legislative line when your st

ogether your executive department recommendations by category and your joint budget and legislative staff recommendation and then the Appropriations takes the knowledge and makes the decision. Your annual is fixed by current appropriations bills. If you have some other authorizing committees as to overall programs you may bring them nto the discussion of what is essential for the national well being so they may go back then to their committees and change the basic authorizing laws in some areas.

Is that the thought of having them involved that they might see some of their existing ongoing authorization projects need reforming and revamping?

Mr. DAVIS. We do have a problem here really on the part of some legislative committees, and particularly true with respect to general revenue sharing, they just didn't want the Appropriations Committee to look at it, because they couldn't be sure that money was going to be available, and we are getting that philosophy among others, and behind the tentative suggestion this committee made, that we better get some of these other people involved and get them into the picture here, so the Appropriations Committee which can control less than half of it, just isn't the only source responsible for the spending.

Mr. CONLAN. Then this is good, but you ought to watch carefully, you don't diffuse the spending responsibility.

Chairman WHITTEN. The point we make here is it is already diffused. We need to bring them in otherwise we cannot have budgetary control.

Mr. CONLAN. This is right. In these areas this is tied in with the overall structure.

Mr. DAVIS. Let me say, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Conlan, we think you have very well expressed the concern you and your junior colleagues in the House have, and the concern I am sure the members of this committee have felt. I think you have given us some good input into the solution of this problem. Thank you.

Mr. CONLAN. Thank you, Mr. Davis; thank you, Mr. Whitten, for your time. We are behind you all the way.

Chairman WHITTEN. We will adjourn until 10 a.m., Tuesday morning, March 13, 1973.

Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Tuesday, March 13, 1973.]