way late in the year when the climate is better for passing th administration wished.

Senator HUMPHREY. No doubt, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman WHITTEN. All of these things are part and pa political and public affairs process. However, many of the we have are within the realm Congress could solve on its wished to.

Certainly we need to eliminate the delay in the app process so departments and agencies can plan and operate grams rather than exist under one continuing resolution other, pending passage of legislative authorizations.

As cochairman I felt the first thing that this special St mittee needed to do was to get over to the American people about the budgetary control problems. I believe the Interi accomplished this. And it sets forth tentative recommen to course of action. It is most significant that the report members of this committee was unanimous. It is factual complete. We certainly will give full consideration to your and that of Mr. Moorhead.

I think you will agree that any successful budgetary cont anism must encompass all committees which have an impa budget, not just the Appropriations Committees. Incidentall port shows that in the last 20 years the Appropriations C has appropriated out considerably less money every year quested in the budget.

So it has been through various backdoor spending bills t gress has exceeded the budget. That is not to say we have bee in our committee.

I believe that any special legislative Budget Committee th be established must have broad representation to include, not taxation and appropriations committees but also the legisla mittees. I think that we are going to have to approach it tha the revised system is to work and be generally accepted.

We must limit ourselves to the possible and to the practical the power of the purse. I am very jealous of that power bu think I have ever seen anybody more jealous of the rights an of the people as the late Sam Rayburn.

I can't express it as well or as forcibly as he did, but v rights of the Congress are in any way impinged upon, it is th of the people that are being affected. We represent the peop hope we will take the responsibility upon ourselves, to get our order so we can retain and fully exercise our power of the pu

This is not to argue with your position. It is to ask you to it your thought and your experience to help us see what we to help bring about these necessary changes in our budgeting procedures.

Mr. MOORHEAD. Let me say that I hear you loud and clea made notes here that you wanted to get something that the C could adopt and I think that the legislation that Senator Hu and I have presented is an adoptable thing because it puts the in a relatively powerless committee, the Joint Economic Con which has no legislative or appropriating jurisdictions and it nizes that the fiscal policy in the tax writing committees,

propriations committees, monetary policies in the Banking and Currency Committees there are a lot of legislative committees that lo in effect appropriate.

All of them are jealous of their powers, but none of them have heir toes stepped on by the Joint Economic Committee because it s powerless to do anything more than to recommend.

On the other hand, I think it has a track record that would enitle to it the respect from the other committees. So I think it is an doptable idea.

Chairman WHITTEN. We certainly will give it every consideration. I thank you for your testimony and I will welcome an opportunity to discuss these matters with you personally.

Senator HUMPHREY. Mr. Chairman, I just leave you with one final hought.

The whole purpose of this proposal, recognizing that it is in rough form, so to speak, even though it is the best we could do within our time, the whole purpose was to place at the disposal of the Congress the mantle of an existing operation, the Joint Economic Committee. A committee that does not have legislative authority, that is advisory, that is analytical, that is a study committee, that has within its charter, so to speak, the job of coordinating, of looking at the coordination of programs insofar as they affect economic policy. We would establish a separate office, Mr. Chairman, kind of a GAO under that committee, only it would not be postaudit. It would be preaudit to take a look at the outlays, the possibility of revenues, looking at the requested new obligation authority and coming up with an analysis and then presenting that analysis to the appropriate Appropriations Committees. Because ultimately the matter of spending is in the hands of the Appropriations Committee and the respective Houses.

I don't think we want to give that off to somebody else. By the way Congress has not done so badly despite the fact that there is a lot of criticism about the Congress and I have been in and out of it both ways. Let me say that by and large we haven't done too badly and I don't think we ought to sell ourselves down the river because somebody says we are allegedly fiscally irresponsible.

Chairman WHITTEN. Senator, you are so persuasive. I am letting you take the time up of my good friend, Mr. Moorhead.

Our colleague, Mr. Mahon, had only this limited time to be here so we did cut in and we did not mean to.

I recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania at this time.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM S. MOORHEAD, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA

Mr. MOORHEAD. I don't want to take up unduly the time of this Joint Committee.

I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that I have the written testimony which I would like to submit for the record.

Chairman WHITTEN. We would be glad to have it for the record, without objection, and may I say you have touched on some parts of it. Mr. MOORHEAD. I will just take a very few minutes then, Mr. Chairman, to give what I thought were the big points.

I do believe that the people of the United States rec we are in a somewhat of a constitutional confrontation legislative branch of government and the executive bran since I have been in the Congress the legislative branch h in power and the executive branch has increased in powe I express to my friends that I don't consider this to be political matter of Republican versus Democrat. I think stitutional question of the executive versus the legislativ believe that we have some mechanism whereby the good ed a spending ceiling should be established, but it should be in the legislative branch of government rather than by th branch because the power of the purse is all that we have the peoples' representatives.

I want to associate myself completely with the remarks o tor from Minnesota and particularly that this bill which House, H.R. 4831, is merely a draft. It is something to get going. How we can set up a mechanism? As you said in yo Report, on page 2, there should be a mechanism for Cong sider the whole budget, and then you list A, B, and C. And i cover merely appropriations, but new obligational authori penditures that come without appropriation authorization.

I call your attention to section 103, subsection 5, on page 9 which would have the congressional budget office project only for the current year but for 3 to 5 years ahead so it wo this.

I think that we in the legislative branch should have, pa in the economic field, some of the power to check upon the again, whichever party is now in power in the White House.

The White House has the Council of Economic Adviser Bureau of the Budget. We have in the Joint Economic Com congressional equivalent of the Council of Economic Adv we do not have I don't think the GAO can or is designed to the function-the Bureau of the Budget. That would be the that would be performed under this legislation that Senat phrey and I have cosponsored.

With that statement, Mr. Chairman, I will conclude, a course, responsive to any questions the members have. [The full statement follows:]

I am a co-sponsor of the Fiscal and Budgetary Reform Act of 1973 w fully would set up the structure and procedures within the Congress w authorization processes would be more closely related to the activit Appropriation Committees. It would also set up appropriate staff fac budget analysis as well as establish a capability within the Congress fo ing both existing and proposed programs. The Senator already has offe cuss a section-by-section analysis of our bill. I would like to take my in to explain the great need for this kind of capability in the Congress. In speaking to you, my colleagues. I know how troubled we are by th state of affairs where we find ourselves on the one hand falsely viet the Administration for wasteful spending-an accusation that is un and which, in my opinion, represents an attempt to inject polities into difficult and complex business of public budgeting. On the other hand ourselves frustrated in major sectors of public program by heavy impor within the Executive Branch-impoundments that, in my opinion, go fa the appropriate duties of the President to avoid wasteful spending a actually constitute a thwarting of the legislative will.

It has been my experience, and I know you share it, that Congress is very conrned about the whole issue of public spending and for good reason! The Federal udget is now over $250 billion, that is, it has passed the quarter trillion mark nd is moving up. This means that the share of the national income that passes rough the hands of the Federal Government is approaching 30 percent. Thirty ents out of every dollar of national income comes through the Federal Governent and passes through the Federal Government into the expenditure stream. his has a tremendous effect on our entire economy. We cannot delude ourselves ith the outmoded notion that Federal fiscal activities are but a small incident in vast market economy. The truth is that the very destiny of our entire economy closely dependent upon Federal taxes and Federal expenditures.

Yet, in spite of this massive Federal impact on the economic destiny of the ountry, the Congress does not have any mechanism for considering the Federal udgetary program in its entirety.

The Federal budget comes to the Congress each year, a massive interrelated omplex of financial and statistical information supporting the quarter trillion ollars of expenditure proposals. However, as soon as it arrives, it is broken up to its component parts. Each one of those parts is considered on its merits inependently; but what should be considered even more thoroughly and deberately is the total level of expenditures, the ceiling, the limit that Congress ees fit to place on all spending. This problem is now all but virtually ignored. This is precisely the problem which our bill addresses and this is exactly he problem which we expect will be solved with a beefed up capability in the oint Economic Committee.

In essence, the Budget Analysis Office would operate as a congressional Office f Management and Budget.

Shortly before formal receipt of the budget, our congressional budget office would establish, after considerable study and analysis, a proposed level of expenditures, along with a projection of revenues and a decision as to whether he nation would best be served that fiscal year by budget deficit or a budget =urplus.

It would forward this evaluation to the respective Appropriations Committee and if changes in revenue are recommended an appropriate proposal would go co the tax writing committees. The Senate and House Appropriations Committee would, within 15 days, develop a budget celing and report that figure to their respective chambers.

The membership would then vote on that dollar amount established by the Appropriations Committees and any disparity would be worked out in the normal conference method.

The budget ceiling figure chosen by the Congress would then guide the proper authorization committees in their adoption of specific program amounts.

The attractive feature of this bill is that by developing to a greater extent a capability which already exists in the Joint Economic Committee, we can provide the Appropriations Committees and the Senate Finance and the Ways and Means Committees, a congressional economic analysis that would give a continuity and an interrelatedness to their actions which the Congress has never had before. The JEC, except for a strengthened analytical capability-which all of us agree is needed by the Congress-will remain still a committee with no legislative authority. Under our bill it will merely gain a responsibility which I believe it can perform better than any other unit in the Congress-the authority to propose a budget ceiling which the Congress can use as a guide to carry out its constitutional role.

Let me talk for a moment about the relation between revenues and expenditures. We have been exposed in recent years to a great deal of explanation and analysis respecting the proper role of a Federal deficit or a Federal surplus. Even more complicated is the injection of the concept of the full employment budget, that is, the budget as it might be should we have full employment. This is indeed a valid concept for public policy analysis but it is one that remains altogether too obscure for most of us. Our bill would go to the heart of this problem. It would do so by setting up a capability in the Congress to determine the proper level of public expenditures for each year. Moreover, it would set up a capability for evaluating the issue of whether a deficit is appropriate, a surplus, or a balanced Federal intake and outflow. It would permit this evaluation in the light of the best insights into the state of the economy. Unless the state of the economy is considered in this context, the decision as to a budget ceiling could easily be irrelevant to the question of economic well-being.

I have long believed that the Joint Economic Committee should serve a greater function than it has to date.

I am sure that it is the one unit which would have the respect of raising and spending committees of the Congress and could provide t and unity which so many of us feel is crucial if we are to truly I budget considerations.

While some may not find all in our bill desirable, I believe that the action called for in the legislation is the direction in which we h You will hear many proposals in the coming months to reestablish prerogatives. This is but one of them. It is one which I feel has g but certainly not the only way to untrack ourselves from institution However, we are wasting an important asset by underutilizing th nomic Committee. It is a committee which has been far ahead of branch in its appraisals and reports. It has been a committee of visi endeavor.

If we will it, it can be the committee that makes us a fiscal parti than a fiscal observer.

Chairman WHITTEN. We appreciate your statement, and questioned you earlier, I will pass now to Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. JAMES BROYHILL. I do appreciate you gentlemen fore us.

A number of ideas have been presented to us. Of cours duty and task of this committee to sift through these many and hopefully we can come up with some meaningful re

tions.

This is a very intriguing possibility that you have put I have one question really. As I understand your plan, the would submit his budget figures and then the Joint Econ mittee would analyze this and then present them to the App Committee which in turn could revise it upward or dow present it to the respective Houses for their consideratio amendment. Is that correct?

Senator HUMPHREY. Yes.

Mr. JAMES BROYHILL. The question I am coming to-
Senator HUMPHREY. It is only partly correct.

Mr. JAMES BROYHILL. This as I understand it, is a congres ommendation for an expenditure ceiling. Why would you Presidential signature upon passage?

Senator HUMPHREY. So it would have the force of la think that would be essential. I think you could do it thro resolution. But it would just have the force of law.

I might add, Congressmen, that we provide under section proposed legislation, that prior to the submission of the the United States for each fiscal year, the Joint Committe cluding the Office, that is the Office of Budget Evaluation and shall make a thorough study of the Nation's economic cond the factors having a bearing thereon, including business, in trade, and so forth.

Based upon such a study, taking into consideration the of the Employment Act, the Executive Director of the J mittee shall 2 days prior to the receipt of the U.S. budg President's economic report make a report to the Joint C with an estimate of revenues that will be received by th Government.

In other words, a kind of preliminary. The budget is a v document and no mayor, no Governor, no legislator, or nobo consulted before this budget comes to us.