CITIES IN WHICH SITTINGS OF DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE WERE HELD, DATES, AND THE NUMBER OF WITNESSES EXAMINED IN EACH CITY.

6 of these were delegates from the Perthshire Committee on Tinkers and Vagrants.

† In addition 11 sittings were held in London for the purpose of making Recommendations and of considering Report.

INSTITUTIONS VISITED BY COMMITTEE.

In addition to the twenty-seven sittings held in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Perth, Aberdeen, Dundee, and London, for the purpose of taking evidence, the Committee visited, between the 16th of November 1894 and 28th January 1895, thirty-five institutions and interviewed 350 inmates.

The institutions visited, the date of visit, and the number of inmates interviewed, are given in the subjoined table.

Prisons, 8; Police Offices, 3; Reformatories and Industrial Schools, 10; Magdalene Asylums and Industrial Refuges, 7; Orphan Homes, 1; Inebriate Homes, 1; Night Asylums, 4; Children's Shelter, 1-Total, 35. House of Refuge, Edinburgh, twice visited.

MAIN FEATURES OF INQUIRY.

A.-HABITUAL PETTY OFFENDERS apprehended, convicted, fined, or imprisoned for (1) Drunkenness, accompanied by incapacity or disorderly conduct; (2) Breaches of the Peace and Petty Assaults; (3) Prostitution; (4) Vagrancy and Begging; (5) Petty Thefts, with Sentences of 14 days.

and under.

B.-VAGRANTS, BEGGARS, TINKERS, and GIPSIES.-Their habits and mode of living. Experience in other countries.

C.-HABITUAL DRUNKARDS OF POORER CLASSES seldom or never coming under cognisance of the police-The Habitual Drunkards Act, 1879, and the Inebriates Act of 1888-Procedure antecedent to admission to Licensed Retreats-The element of compulsion-Maintenance by friends, Church, philanthropic, or other agencies-Period and conditions of detention in Licensed Houses or Retreats-Experience in other countries.

D.-WELL-TO-DO HABITUAL DRUNKARDS.-Habitual Drunkards Act, 1879, and Inebriates Act of 1888-Element of compulsion-Licensed RetreatsPeriod of detention, &c.-Experience in other countries.

E. RESULT OF DETENTION OF VOLUNTARY INEBRIATES AND HABITUAL PETTY OFFENDERS in Asylums, Homes, Shelters, licensed and unlicensed, in this country-Period of detention-Employment-Maintenance.

F.-JUVENILE DELINQUENTS.

[Witnesses, when cited to appear, were supplied with the foregoing.]

1

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE THE

DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE

APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO

THE BEST METHODS OF
METHODS OF DEALING
DEALING WITH HABITUAL
OFFENDERS, VAGRANTS, BEGGARS, INEBRIATES,
AND JUVENILE OFFENDERS IN SCOTLAND.

FIRST DAY.

London, Monday, 9th July 1894

PRESENT:

SIR CHARLES CAMERON, BART., M.D., LL.D., M.P., CHAIRMAN

Lieut.-Col. A. B. M'HARDY, R.E., Prison Commis

sioner for Scotland.

Dr. R. FARQUHARSON, M.P.

Col. Sir COLIN SCOTT MONCRIEFF, R.E., Under-
Secretary for Scotland.

Professor JOHN DOVE WILSON, LL.D., Professor of
Law, Aberdeen University.

DR. J. F. SUTHERLAND, Deputy Commissioner

in Lunacy for Scotland.

Miss FLORA C. STEVENSON, Member of the
Edinburgh School Board.

J. F. SUTHERLAND, Secretary.

The Secretary (Dr. Sutherland.) The following are the terms of the reference: Whereas representations have from time to time been made to me by influential bodies, to the effect that there is a large and increasing number of Habitual Offenders, Vagrants, Beggars, and Inebriates in Scotland, and 'that the existing powers of dealing with such persons, especially with a view to a permanent remedy, ' are inadequate, and whereas I consider that it is desirable, in the public interest, that a full inquiry 'into this subject should be instituted, I accordingly hereby appoint a Committee consisting of :-Sir 'Charles Cameron, Bart., M.D., M.P. (Chairman); Lieut.-Col. A. B. M'Hardy, R.E., Prison Commis'sioner for Scotland; R. Farquharson, Esq., M.D., M.P.; Col. Sir Colin Scott Moncrieff, R.E., 'K.C.M.G., C.S.I., Under-Secretary for Scotland; John Dove Wilson, Esq., LL.D., Professor of Law, Aberdeen University; J. F. Sutherland, Esq., M.D., Medical Officer, Glasgow Prison; Miss Flora C. 'Stevenson, Hon. F.E.I.S., Member of the Edinburgh School Board, to inquire whether the number of persons is increasing, and into the cause of such increase, and further, to suggest such remedies as may, while deterrent, be likely to bring about their reformation and to prevent further additions to their numbers, due regard being had to the cost of any remedies which may be suggested, and to the practicability of their being carried into effect; and also to inquire into the number of male and 'female Juvenile Offenders sent to prison in Scotland, the offences for which they are committed, and 'the extent to which such committals could be lessened, and to report generally on the subject; and I 'appoint Dr. Sutherland to be Secretary to the Committee.-(Signed) GEORGE OTTO TREVELYAN, 'HER MAJESTY'S SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND, Scottish Office, Whitehall, 19th June 1894.'

'such

A

Bailie Samuel
Chisholm,

13 Nov. 1894.

Sir COLIN SCOTT MONCRIEFF, R.E.

BAILIE SAMUEL CHISHOLM, Glasgow, called in and examined by the CHAIRMAN.

1. You are a bailie of Glasgow ?—I am.

2. How long have you been in that capacity-Three

years.

3. You were the Convener of the Committee to consider the subject of Habitual Offenders, which was instituted in Glasgow some years ago?-I was the Convener.

4. In that capacity you had to pay particular attention to the subject of our present inquiry ?-Yes; I submit a*Memorial which was presented to Sir George Trevelyan, the Secretary for Scotland, on the subject.

5. This Memorial, I see, commences by calling atten-
tion to the difference in the proportionate number of
the population and the arrests for drunkenness and
disorderly conduct in Scotland and in England. Have
you any opinion on that point -We were accustomed
to consider that the difference of the national beverages
accounted to a considerable extent for the extra-
ordinary difference that the Scotsman's glass of
whisky was much more conducive to drunkenness than
the Englishman's beer. I will not say that the results
of the one are in themselves more detrimental than the
other, but, nevertheless, it produces drunkenness more
rapidly than the other; and there is this further—
although I am not quite sure I can give you data for
it that our police supervision is more strict, and that
men and women are apprehended, and, as
we say,
'run in,' who would be allowed to remain on the
streets or taken to their homes in other places.

6. When a man is run in,' does that necessarily
lead to his being brought before the magistrates Not
necessarily; but it is regarded as an apprehension.

7. You have a system of letting men out on pledge
Yes.

8. Could you explain that? In whose discretion
does that lie The lieutenant who receives the charge.
A policeman brings a drunk person to the bar; he is
searched, and whatever articles he has in his pocket-
money or other articles-are taken from him. When
he becomes sober, in the course of the day or night,
if he has had in his possession an amount of, say, 5s.
to 7s. 6d., the lieutenant accepts that as what you
would call bail, and dismisses him with the intimation
that he is to appear for trial to-morrow morning. If
he does not appear, then the pledge is forfeited, and
that is regarded as an apprehension, although he is
never really brought before the magistrate.

9. But are there any means taken to ascertain if the man gives his proper name?-No; any name is accepted. 10. Have you any statistics as to the number of pledges forfeited in Glasgow-In 1893 there were 16,043 apprehensions for drunkenness, and of these 5832 forfeited their bail-that is, considerably more than one-third were released on bail which was forfeited. 11. Their bail being their deposits ?—Yes.

12. Averaging from what?-Averaging from 2s. 6d., which would be the smallest amount, to 5s. and 7s. 6d. that was when the case was one of mere drunkenness. 13. Do you know the total amount of money forfeited for drunkenness ?-No; not for drunkenness alone; but the total amounts forfeited altogether are something like £12,000 to £13,000.

14. (By Professor Dove Wilson.) That is in a year? --A year.

15. (The Chairman's examination continued.) And these are regarded as police funds?—Yes

13 Nov. 1894

16. I suppose many of the people who forfeit their Bailie Samue pledges in that way are well-known to the police? Chisholm. There are a number who are well-known parties who give bail or who have money to leave; but there are more of the well-known classes amongst those who come up for judgment and sentence than amongst those who forfeit their pledge. Those who forfeit their pledge, or a very large proportion of them, are men who have been caught in sudden drunkenness-working men going home; and are not to be regarded by any means as habitual drunkards. The great bulk of these 5000 odd pledges are not from regular drunkards but from occasional.

17. I suppose the police lieutenant does not discriminate at all? He will take a pledge in any name -whatever it may be ?-I believe he does so, as a rule. But in regard to pledges, I may say that not only are those allowed to go out on bail who have money in their pockets, but if, when a man becomes sober, he gives his address, the lieutenant will send to that address, and if his wife or family choose to bail him out he will be released then. Of those released I believe there are a large proportion who have been bailed out by their friends.

18. Of those who are bailed out by their friends, do they turn up again?—Oh yes.

19. (By Sir Colin Scott Moncrieff.) Who decides the amount of bail? In whose discretion is it? The lieutenant decides.

20. (By Miss Sterenson.) Does it depend on the amount the man has in his pocket?—No; it really depends on the district of the town, and the character and feeling of the lieutenaut. There are certain districts where the pledge is always 7s. 6d., but the lieutenants of certain other districts fix it at 5s. I take it, it is largely on account of the people in a certain district who may be better off and can afford 7s. 6d. ; but in any case we notice that we have a long string of pledges in one Court at 5s. and in another Court at 7s. 6d. I may say we have eight Courts in Glasgow altogether.

21. (By Dr. Farquharson.) Suppose a gentleman was caught with two sovereigus in his pocket, would you fine him more heavily on that account ?-No.

22. (The Chairman's examination continued.) Can you give us any statistics on the extent to which this pledging system occurs in the case of habitual drunkards and those for petty offenders? You said the total was something like £13,000?—Yes; I am not sure whether Captain Boyd's annual statistics give us that, but I might be able to get it. With regard to assaults, "breaches of the peace,' as they are called, we estimate that out of 20,622 cases 4709 forfeited their pledge.

23. I presume a large number of those are associated to a certain extent with drunkenness ?-They are just drunken cases where the drunk man had struck out, and fought with the police officer. Indeed, there are many cases where a man is apprehended simply for drunkenness, but on his way to the Police Office he kicks out, objects, rebels, and if he kicks the policeman then his charge is changed from drunkenness to assault, so that very many of these cases of breach of the peace and assault are really only cases of drunkenness, but I may say, as assault carries a heavier penalty, it is changed to that.

24. About the other pledges ?—I have no statistics. * Vide Appendix H.

e Samuel I have taken next, prostitutes, and there is no such thing as taking a pledge from a prostitute.

Jov. 1894. .

-

25. Is that under special instruction No; there is no special instruction..

26. The lieutenants simply act upon their own discretion in that matter? Yes, I think so.

27. Do you take it that the arrests of prostitutes are to a large extent connected with drunkenness ?-A very large number of them.

28. Let us take the drunkard who does not escape with the pledge, and is brought before the magistrates. Is there any agreement among the magistrates as to the punishment to give him?-There is no agreement. So far as I am aware, there has been no attempt even, and the result is that the treatment which drunkards receive from the magistrates is very varied; some, disposed to mercy, dealing very largely in admonition and dismissal, or in the minimum fine of 2s. 6d. or three days' imprisonment, and others, who believe that drunkenness is a crime, varying the sentence, according to their judgment, from the minimum up to 15s. or 14 days.

29. What do you call the minimum ?-Two shillings and sixpence or three days. There are certain magistrates whose record chiefly consists of sentences of 28. 6d. or three days.

30. Is there any agreement among the magistrates as to an increase in the punishment inflicted upon drunkards, in the case of persons who are very frequently brought before them?-I think there is a general consensus of opinion amongst the magistrates that that should be done, but there has been no discussion at the Board in regard to the matter. That is, the magistrates have never decided it.

31. In the English Licensing Act I understand there is a direction increasing the fines in the case of repeated convictions of drunkards,-that is, so much for the first offence, so much for the second, and so much for the third; the highest reaching up to 40s. Have you anything similar here?-We have nothing of that sort in Glasgow.

32. Or in. Scottish law?-No.

33. What is the highest punishment for drunkards you have the right to inflict-for simple drunkards The highest punishment is usually 14 days.

34. Or what fines?-The fine requires to be above 10s. to carry 14 days. If it is under 10s. then you can only imprison for seven days.

35. And what fines are inflicted in the heavier cases -Fifteen shillings or 14 days.

We

36. Is that common-No; not at all common. 37. What is the highest in your Court?-I may say there is no magistrate has a Court of his own. perambulate about, but I have reason to believe that, in the case of habitual drunkards, the highest is 14 days. 38. Where do they put in that 14 days?—The men at Barlinnie and the women at Duke Street.

39. Take the case of drunk and disorderlies, and petty assaults-what do your powers extend to in connection with them?-We have no such thing as drunk and disorderlies. Up to 1865, that phrase was used, but one of the judges, I understand, decided that, if a man was capable of being disorderly, he could not be drunk. Drunkenness goes along with incapability, and therefore a man who is drunk and incapable was not classed as disorderly.

40. Well, then, take the case of the breach of the peace and assault-what do your powers extend to in them -They vary. If it is simple assault, 40s. or 30 days; or, if it is to the effusion of blood, then it runs up to 60 days.

41. As to vagrants have you much to do with them? -We have to do with them, but not excessively, in Glasgow. The laws of vagrancy are very strictly enforced. The entire number of vagrants during 1893 was 176.

42. What laws are strictly enforced?-A person found begging can be sent to prison for 14 days.

43. Under the Glasgow Police Act, have you any special powers dealing with vagrants?These are our special powers.

44. That is for beggary the same under our Act.

Vagrants and beggars are Bailie Samuel

45. There is no provision in Glasgow such as there is in England for the reception in casual wards --No. There are a considerable number of persons come to the Police Office for protection, and are kept there over night.

46. As a matter of fact, there are a certain number of casuals received into the Police Office for protection ?There were 5304 persons who, at their own solicitation, received protection in the various Police Offices last year. 47. Is there any provision for giving them food?Yes, they get a little food.

48. That is at the police expense-Yes, at the expense of the rates, that is, the police rates.

49. (By Miss Stevenson.) Are they put into cells -They are kept in some of the rooms, but if there are any empty cells they are put there, but the cells are really comfortable rooms.

50. (Examination by Chairman resumed.) Are they mostly fresh comers, or do they come habitually -A number of them come regularly.

51. (By Sir Colin Scott Moncrieff.) Are they tramps? --A number of them are parties who, when they are a little better off, go to the lodging-houses; but when they have no money they go to the Police Office.

52. In connection with the city of Glasgow, is there any provision or accommodation, at a very cheap rate, for people who, without such provision, would find themselves absolutely destitute There are our model lodging-houses.

53. Will you describe them?-We have in Glasgow, belonging to the Corporation, seven model lodginghouses, able to accommodate each from 300 to 400 men in the case of six of them, and women in the seventh. There are private beds, and a recreation and dining-room, and a common kitchen with a large hot plate, where they can cook their own food; and they get the run of the house for twenty-four hours, including their bed, and including the use of utensils to cook their food, for prices varying from threepence to fourpence-halfpenny per night..

54. And that accommodation is very largely taken advantage of?-There are, I should say, over 300 nights out of 365 in the year, when there is not a vacant bed in one of them.

55. (Examination by Chairman resumed.) Do the class who frequent these houses consist of people without rooms who make these lodging-houses their homes, or are they casuals and a floating lot -There is a considerable proportion of the floating lot, but it is wonderful the number who really make them their permanent home. One of the superintendents told me. the other day that he had a man who had been there for twelve years, having lived there every night. But that, of course, is an exceptional case.

56. Do the authorities in Glasgow consider it as desirable that these model lodging-houses should be kept up for persons who make them their permanent home, or do they discourage them?-We have never done anything in the way of dealing with that question at all. The homes are open, and it is really in the discretion of the superintendent to take or refuse whomsoever he chooses, but we do not wish them to be made a permanent home by any one.

57. In some of the Labour Colonies they have rules as to the length of time in which residence is allowed? -We have no such rules. In general, I believe the superintendent rather likes to have the permanent people, as he gets to know them then.

58. That is, it costs him less trouble? Well, he knows them, and can get them to do what he could not get a perfect stranger to do, and there comes to be a sort of friendly relation between them.

59. (By Sir Colin Scott Moncrieff.) You do not require any work from them?—No.

60. (Examination by Chairman resumed.) The lodgers pay in advance, don't they?—Yes.

61. Is that arrangement in Glasgow supplemented by many private lodging-houses of a similar character ? --There is a large number of private lodging-houses.

62. In your magisterial capacity, have you had any

Chisholm

13 Nov. 1894.

H