resolve the matter of aboriginal claims of the natives of Alaska. I think I might add that such claims are largely disposed of in southeastern Alaska through the Court of Claims in the Haida-Thlinkit case, in which the Indians are about to be awarded a large sum of money which would compensate them for their original Indian title in Tongass National Forest. And Tongass National Forest covers practically all of southeastern Alaska. Thank you.

Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Secretary, it is a real pleasure to have you. As always, it is a privilege to cooperate with you. I was delighted to hear what you had to say about the wilderness bill. You know it is such a controversial matter, and I am afraid we may get so emotional we might not be able to deal with it.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman would not be quite fair to this committee if he let the question of aboriginal rights go unexplained. The committee has been working on this matter, to the chairman's own personal knowledge, since 1951. We have a file pretty well filled. It is true we have not had very much constructive attention given to the matter for the last 7 or 8 years. It is one of the problems that we must give further consideration very soon.

The Chair calls upon his colleague, Mr. Rogers of Texas.

Secretary UDALL. Mr. Chairman, may I say first, for the benefit of the committee, on the aboriginal rights problem I think the initiative on this ought to come from the administration, and I think that the people downtown who have never come up with a proposal is the reason nothing has been done. I want to make that quite clear.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Secretary, my compliments on your birthday and on the fine work you have done. My compliments to Mr. Carr and the Assistant Secretaries for the cooperation they have given this committee and the subcommittees, and particularly the subcommittee on which I serve as chairman.

I do not know what the Secretary said in answer to Mr. Saylor's question about extending the reclamation law to all of the rest of the United States. Those of us in the 17 western reclamation States have felt somewhat secure insofar as his party is concerned in view of the loud noises that have been made against Government participation programs and we had thought we were safe. Certainly I would not want to subscribe to any policy that would jeopardize our position at this time under the reclamation law, but I would certainly try to be most helpful to my good friend from Pennsylvania in solving his water problems and other problems that I think the Interior Department has to do with.

If my memory serves me correctly, both the upper Colorado project and the candidate to whom he referred were crowned with success, and I think that project probably helped the country. Maybe I should not say that, but I like to be nonpartisan.

I think this committee will continue to work on these problems, and I want to say this to you, Mr. Secretary, and the Under Secretary, and the Assistant Secretaries, we will be most happy to have your recommendations forwarded to the committee, and speaking for the subcommittee of which I am chairman, we will continue to cut out the bad and include the good in all legislation.

Mr. SAYLOR. Will the gentleman yield for an observation?
Mr. ROGERS. I am happy to.

Mr. SAYLOR. I might say to my colleague from Texas that I have asked for an interpretation of the constitutionality of the reclamation law in view of the fact that the present Constitution of the United States says that States other than the original 13 shall be admitted on an equal basis. The very favorable position in which the 17 Western States find themselves, I am afraid, gives rise to a challenge of the constitutionality of the present reclamation law.

Mr. ROGERS. Let me say this to the gentleman from Pennsylvania: Those of us in the 17 Western States have been afraid somebody might do that, although we repay the cost of our projects. Flood control projects are much more favorable, but we can't get those.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair recognizes his colleague from South Dakota, Mr. Berry.

Mr. BERRY. I shall not touch upon anything political because I want to save some time for the folks further down.

You mentioned the heirship matter under the Indian problem. I am more interested in the live Indians than the dead ones, and I suppose no one probably causes your Department more problems than I do, because of the problems of the Indians.

But I am wondering, is the Department going to move forward in approving an industrial program for the Indian people by offering industry inducements to come to the reservations, tax benefits, tax exemptions, or anything like that?

Secretary UDALL. Well, of course this is in effect part of our existing program in part. I know what the Congressman has in mind. Naturally, plants constructed on the Indian reservations in some States, at least, are not subject to normal real property taxation, and there are tax advantages to that. We are attempting, wherever possible, both by the reinvestment of Indian funds-and the Navajo Indians, for example, have with their own money built an $8 million sawmill.

Mr. BERRY. But we have other Indians beside the Navajos, that is the problem.

Secretary UDALL. And we have tried in our own area with considerable success to bring industry to Indian reservations, to locate plants under the most favorable conditions possible. It may be there are further steps that should be taken, and we are glad to have any suggestions for legislation or otherwise. I think this is the longrun hope, to insure the right kind of development and use of both the potential of these people as people, and of their resources. Mr. BERRY. I think if we are going to do anything to resolve what is known as the Indian problem, I think we have got to provide jobs, and we have got to provide income, and we have got to provide payrolls for these people on these reservations, and you cannot get industry-I think our efforts in the last few years have proven that you cannot get industry to come to these reservations without some kind of an inducement.

I have thought for a long time that the only inducement that can be offered is a tax inducement, and I have been trying to get legislation through Congress, some favorable action from your Department, on a bill that would provide this tax inducement. And I hope you will study it.

That is all. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Edmondson. Mr. EDMONDSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to join the colleagues who have complimented the Secretary and the members of his personal staff, the Under Secretary and the department heads at the Interior Department, for what I think is one of the outstanding administrative jobs being done in Washington today. I know that you carry on a great many activities in Oklahoma and my own experience in the State, my own contacts down there, convince me that the prestige of the Interior Department and the respect for it have never been higher than they are in Oklahoma right now.

My colleague from South Dakota made mention of the Indian question, the Indian problems, and in this area I am particularly grateful for the stepped-up Indian road program that has been taking place in our State and the increased activity in the field of vocational education for Indians, and we are very grateful for the enlargement of these programs.

I am personally impressed very deeply with the way in which the Department has moved closer to the people in many, many of the problems that we have in the country. For example, down at Sanford

Mr. ROGERS. The Canadian?

Mr. EDMONDSON. Yes; at the Canadian River project, where we attended a ground breaking last year, there was just a little incident that took place that spoke volumes to me of outlook and attitude. At the time of the ground breaking, the representative of your Department who was speaking for the Department in addition to other officials there, introduced a number of people, and thanked them, who had made land available for the project, whose land became a part of the reservoir and the actual dam structure. And this was an expression of appreciation to people that often feel they have been run over by a ruthless Government organization and department. thought it was an indication of an attitude or a state of mind that was very healthy.

I

I just wanted to be one who spoke a word of appreciation today for what I think is one of our great and most effective departments serving the people. Thank you.

Secretary UDALL. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Colorado.

Mr. CHENOWETH. I want to join with the chairman and the other members of the committee, Mr. Secretary, in welcoming you and the members of your staff here today. Also to wish you a happy birthday and many more of these anniversaries.

We have not only enjoyed our association with you, but with your distinguished brother who sits as a member of this committee. The Udall family is well taken care of up here so far as the committee is concerned.

I appreciate your reference to the importance of this committee. This is a great committee and it is important because you make it You give us the ammunition and the facts and figures we must

SO.

have.

I want to ask just one question, Mr. Secretary. I am getting considerable mail, as I know other members are, concerning this proposal to change the regulations which govern the rights-of-way of private utilities in building transmission lines on public land.

I want to inquire if this new regulation is going to go into effect or are you going to postpone the effective date until protests can be heard?

Secretary UDALL. No. Because of the widespread interest in this matter, we published proposed regulations with the usual 30-dayMr. CHENOWETH. Thirty days to file protests?

Secretary UDALL. Yes. And that time has already expired, and we have moved the period up now until March 15. The Senate Interior Committee has indicated it will probably have a hearing of some kind on it, and we feel that we should go slow on this and evaluate it carefully and give everyone an opportunity to be heard. So we have already extended the time and we expect to go slow on it.

Mr. CHENOWETH. In other words, you have extended the date until March 15.

Secretary UDALL. That is right.

Mr. CHENOWETH. I want to compliment you, Mr. Secretary for taking that action. I think this was a very wise move.

That is all, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand, Mr. Secretary, what you have. heard from the committee does not necessarily mean there will be hearings. I suppose that will be determined later on?

Secretary UDALL. Yes, that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Baring, our colleague from Nevada.

Mr. BARING. I want also to wish the Secretary a happy birthday. This is a special day when I am wearing a badge too, Mr. Secretary. This is my 21st wedding anniversary.

Mr. SAYLOR. Your wife is wearing the badge.

Mr. BARING. I would like to compliment the Secretary. Having represented the great State of Arizona, a sister State to Nevada, we have many problems that are very similar, and along with the Governor of Nevada, the two Senators, and myself, we have on several occasions had difficulty with our power allotment at Hoover Dam. We have all been very much impressed, Mr. Secretary, with your work in regard to that. I know, like the gentleman from Oklahoma said, you have brought many of the problems right out to the people. Í know you have just returned from Las Vegas where you addressed the Cattlemen's Association, and we do have some serious problems in that region. I want to get together with you again later, in this regard. It is not appropos this morning. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Our colleague from Iowa, Mr. Kyl.

Mr. KYL. Mr. Secretary, in Iowa we have many people of German extraction and on the occasion of a birthday, they say: "Leben zie so fiele yahren a fuchs um schwartz hadt haasen." which means, "I hope you live as many years as a fox has hairs in its tail."

Secretary UDALL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair recognizes our colleague, Mr. Morris of New Mexico.

Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, I will take just a very few moments. It is always a pleasure to have the Secretary of the Interior here. It has been an exceptional pleasure for me because he is a neighbor from the great State of Arizona, and he has been a very fine Secretary. The people of the State of New Mexico are very proud of him. We feel that since he has left the University of Arizona, departed from their basketball team, and just been Secretary of Interior, we can

work in harmony with him. He has been very helpful to our State. It is always a pleasure to work with him and his fine staff.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from North Dakota, Mr. Nygaard.

Mr. NYGAARD. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, and Assistant Secretaries, and members of the staff: I guess possibly I have been a member of Congress 17 days longer than you have been Secretary. I did not have the advantage of being a member of the committee prior to that time. I moved up. I was way down at the bottom. Now I can look the witnesses in the face and not through the left ear as I did at that time.

As you know, I am from North Dakota and the project we are concerned about, quite seriously, in the State, is Garrison diversion, which was singled out and mentioned by you. I realize you were just hitting high spots and I am glad this is one of the high ones.

I enjoyed very much the association with your Department last year and its various personnel coming in here. Now it takes about 2 years of good sound listening before you dare say a great deal, and I am not sure I am going to be a very solid spokesman for the committee this year. We have some problems, as I indicated, and we had many serious problems we did consider in the last session, and I know some of them are returning to us, and I know there are going to be a lot more.

I have found although I have disagreed with the Department and individuals quite often, that they have recognized the disagreement is on that particular point only and does not cover the entire field, and in that manner I appreciate very much the very fine association I have enjoyed with the Department.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Alaska, Mr. Rivers.

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, I join in welcoming the Secretary and the distinguished members of his staff. I want to say that the questions that Mr. Saylor asked are only symptomatic of the great relationship between my office and the Department of the Interior, because I think Alaska has about the whole spectrum of Interior jurisdiction, and this calls for a lot of work on the part of the State itself, and on the part of the Department and some intermediating on my part between the State and the Interior Department, and some, likewise, you might say, cooperative approaches by the Secretary of Interior in dealing with his own agencies and the State of Alaska. These things get involved and I look forward to continuing the very fine, friendly cooperation as in the past.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. RIVERS. Yes.

Mr. O'BRIEN. We had a discussion a while ago about the 17 reclamation States and our ability to make it apply to the 50. Does not Alaska believe that Alaska is a reclamation State?

Mr. RIVERS. We are not a Reclamation State. We would rather have our money in cash instead of in the form of dams.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not only appropriate, but it is most welcome that the first new member that gets to speak on the committee is one of the charming ladies who have come to the committee.

At this time I call on our charming new Member from Illinois, Mrs. Reid.