Col. SHERRILL. The Arlington Memorial was planned with the idea that this bridge would join up with it in some way, but it was not definitely determined.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice that in building the surface up toward the driveway they have raised the elevation several feet.

Col. SHERRILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose that was done in contemplation of these other improvements?

Col. SHERRILL. Probably, although I think that was rather to get at the proper relief with respect to the park and reflecting pool. The CHAIRMAN. No; this is on the other side.

Col. SHERRILL. I mean the whole elevation. The ground is raised generally to give the proper grade from B Street and also from the reflecting pool on the other side.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about the river side, looking over from Arlington.

Col. SHERRILL. That is because when the Arlington Bridge goes in it will be necessary to have a certain elevation in order to cross without a draw; but the design for the Lincoln Memorial did not include any definite location for this bridge. In other words, there are some of the opinion that the bridge should go off at an angle so as to cross the stream perpendicularly, and there are others who hold the view that it should go off to Columbia Island, with a prolongation of the Mall. The CHAIRMAN. If it is in a state of uncertainty, it may be that the uncertainty might be resolved into a certainty if you should have more time to think about it. If we should by any mischance appropriate this money while that state of uncertainty existed, might it not be possible that you would have to come and have the dose repeated? Col. SHERRILL. No, sir; the connection between the Lincoln memorial and the Arlington Memorial Bridge must be designed at once that is, the designers of the Arlington Memorial Bridge must make a suitable connection with the Lincoln Memorial, and that is the reason why it is essential that it should be done now.

The CHAIRMAN. What difference would it make? They have already completed the landscape side of the Lincoln Memorial. Col. SHERRILL. On the land side; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If they have reached the peak of the level that is going to prevail in the long run, would it not be just as easy to connect up with that level sometime in the future as to-day?

Col. SHERRILL. No, sir. If you considered completing the road plans and other work between the Lincoln Memorial and the river, I judge there would be a considerable chance of doing work that would be more or less wasted if you should do it and then have the bridge plans come in later.

Mr. ANTHONY. There is a clay bank about 10 or 12 feet high along the roadway. Is it your idea to complete the grade right up to the river and make that the approach to the bridge?

Col. SHERRILL. I have given this bridge matter a great deal of study lately, and the best opinion I can offer on that question is that there will be a continuous roadway along the Potomac.

The CHAIRMAN. Where you are filling?

Col. SHERRILL. Yes, sir. I think that probably the best treatment would be to have a roadway along the Potomac to go under the approach to the Arlington Bridge, and then the Arlington Bridge

itself would be in the locality of the Lincoln Memorial, with a suitable entrance there, with one road going in this direction [indicating] and another across the bridge in this direction [indicating] to join with the lower bridge at B Street. Here [indicating] is a small sketch which shows one idea of the bridge there. If you will notice, there is no continuous roadway here [indicating]. That road intersects about here [indicating], and it was in existence when the Lincoln Memorial was built. Now it seems that it is very desirable for that roadway to be made continuous, because the people who go from Potomac Park into Rock Creek Park should not be forced to come around by the Lincoln Memorial, but the Lincoln Memorial should be separated on account of its importance, and should be a sort of shrine. This answers your question as to what extent these plans have been. made. It was in an uncertain condition.

The CHAIRMAN. This road down here [indicating] is on a lower level. This is where you are filling in [indicating]?

Col. SHERRILL. Yes, sir. You will notice that there is no continuous road there. The old idea was that everybody going in there would come to the Lincoln Memorial and go out, but that would make it a mere street or driveway. It will be better to go along this way [indicating], and the idea is to make this a continuous road into Rock Creek Park. Then, if anybody wants to go to the Lincoln Memorial, they will go there for that specific purpose.

Mr. SISSON. How do you go on to that bridge?

Col. SHERRILL. As you go on the bridge, you come down B Street, down to the Lincoln Memorial, and on to the bridge, but if you go by way of the park, you go this way [indicating]. The roadway over there [indicating] comes by the Lincoln Memorial elevation, and then comes right to the bridge there [indicating]. This other road would come right in here [indicating] on a lower level.

Mr. SISSON. You have two roads in there?

Col. SHERRILL. Yes, sir. That road there was gradually raised to the level of the Lincoln Memorial. The other day one of the prominent architects who has been associated with this memorial was quite anxious that this bridge should be carried out here [indicating] and then bend back, and there are other architects who think this the most sensible scheme. I think it is also, because it would be foolish to build any bridge obliquely across the stream. I discussed that with Mr. Bacon, who designed the Lincoln Memorial, and he insists that by all means we should build it on these lines, because it will be foolish to do something that would not be sound economically. That indicates the different views that prevail.

The CHAIRMAN. Has anybody made any calculation of what the bridge would cost?

Col. SHERRILL. Not on this site. This has been studied many times, and according to the old studies, I think, it went from the foot of New York Avenue. We have a good many detailed studies. of that. As a matter of fact, this bridge has been under consideration since 1886, or for, at least, 40 or 50 years.

The CHAIRMAN. And eventually it will be done.

Col. SHERRILL. It will be done slowly. There were a number of designs made about 1897, I think, and I have a drawing of one of them here. The suggestion has been made that this drawing be modified to fit this site. One objection was that it was drawn for an

entirely different condition, as you undertake to modify and bring it over here, there will be a tendency to hold on to those things that they developed there. The architects believe that it will be better to have some design which will thoroughly harmonize with this design. Mr. CANNON. I am on that commission, and had something to do with the Lincoln Memorial. By what authority have those improvements been made reaching out toward the Washington Monument, or by what authority are you encroaching further upon the river there?

Col. SHERRILL. There has been no encroachment, but the act of March, 1913, creating the Arlington Memorial Bridge Commission authorized the completion of the plans for this bridge.

Mr. CANNON. But you are doing some work there, or you are doing some filling in there?

Col. SHERRILL. The filling in there is being done without cost to the Government at all. That is being done by the District of Columbia simply to take care of their refuse.

Mr. CANNON. By what authority does the District of Columbia do it?

Col. SHERRILL. I think that was done in accordance with your commission.

Mr. CANNON. The commission has never taken any action about that, the filling in.

Col. SHERRILL. On the island?

Mr. CANNON. Yes, sir.

Col. SHERRILL. I know nothing of that.

The CHAIRMAN. That is under the river and harbor act ?

Col. SHERRILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a road down here [indicating], but they are making one down here [indicating]?

Col. SHERRILL. The reason for that was the fact that the road had to be removed so the Lincoln Memorial grounds could be properly graded around the memorial.·

Mr. CANNON. That is very likely; I am not finding any fault; but I am not aware of any legislation or any authorization.

Col. SHERRILL. My impression was that legislation was given for building a sea wall in there [indicating] with the intention of the District building behind. Congress has authorized, the extension of that sea wall recently up here [indicating] in connection with the Rock Creek Park Drive.

Mr. CANNON. Who has charge of that, the District?

Col. SHERRILL. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. The Colonel has charge of that under authority of Congress.

SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1921.

BOARD OF MEDIATION AND CONCILIATION.

STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN A. KNAPP, UNITED STATES CIRCUIT JUDGE.

FOR PAYMENT OF SALARIES, INVENTORY OF PROPERTY, ETC.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, for some time, as you, of course, are aware, the Board of Mediation and Conciliation was functioning. After the passage of the transportation act, I think it was the feeling of this committee from what I can learn that the work done by the board could be done through other agencies, and the result is they did not appropriate for the activities of the board for 1922, but we have an estimate now of $8,000 providing for the closing up of the business of the board and for the salaries or compensation of clerks or other employees of the board accrued or that may accrue to the date of the closing of the business of the board; payment of all outstanding indebtedness incurred by the board during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1921; and the inventory of the property and records of the board and their delivery to the proper department of the Government. I am sure the committee would be very glad if you would tell us what the board has been doing and whether there is any necessity for making any additional appropriation? I may say that the thought of the committee when they refused the appropriation was that there was not any further work for the board to do, and they assumed that the failure to make the appropriation would be tantamount to a repeal of the law. As you know, the law has not been repealed.

Judge KNAPP. That is the precise situation. There was a failure to appropriate, but the board was not abolished and so the matter has run along. It is quite true that since the passage of the railway labor act which, among other things, created a railway labor board, the old Board of Mediation and Conciliation has had very little to do.

The CHAIRMAN. Has the board been doing anything since the Congress failed to appropriate?

Judge KNAPP. Nothing has been done, and approaching the 1st of July, when the appropriation expired, the effects, records, documents, furniture, etc., were moved to a Government building at the corner of Eighteenth and B Streets, where there were satisfactory accommodations; and I might say that under the law creating the board of 1913 all the records of labor controversies in the old Bureau of Labor in the Department of Commerce, of which Dr. Naill was so long the head and of which Mr. Hanger, now a member of the Railway Labor Board, was assistant, all records of railway labor disputes in the Interstate Commerce Commission which had accumulated during the period of administration under the Erdman Law, as well as any that were filed with the commerce court, were required to be turned over to the Board of Mediation and Conciliation, and that was done. So that there is a very large accumulation of records, documents, and papers of one kind and another, some of which are of a good deal of value and concerning which inquiries have not been infrequent. It would seem the perfectly fitting thing that these documents should be put

in proper order, some disposition made of the furniture, and the accrued salaries of the members of the board paid rather than compel them to go to the Court of Claims.

The CHAIRMAN. Inasmuch as the sundry civil act, which became a law on the 4th of March, 1921, failed to carry any appropriation for this activity, it occurred to me the board had ample notice that they were not going to have an appropriation for 1922, and that they should close up their affairs between the 4th of March and the 1st of July of that fiscal year, but they did not seem to do that.

Judge KNAPP. I do not think I can tell you why. I was away much of that time, but I was under the impression it was not definitely known there would be no appropriation.

The CHAIRMAN. It was known on the 4th of March, 1921, because the law became effective on that date, so it must have been pretty definitely known.

Judge KNAPP. Yes; but something must have occurred after that. The CHAIRMAN. It may be no special notice was sent to any member of the board.

Judge KNAPP. There was more than that. There was some negotiation and some talk about it. I am quite sure it was not definitely understood, certainly not by me, until nearly the 1st of July, that no appropriation would be made for the next year.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no definite term fixed in the law during which the assistant commissioner shall serve, but there was a definite term fixed for the commissioner.

Judg KNAPP. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And I think the committee thought that inasmuch as there was no definite term fixed for anybody but the commissioner, that the mere failure to appropriate would be tantamount to a repeal of the act, and that all of these people would cease to function. Are you able to tell us, Judge, who the commissioner is and who is the assistant commissioner?

Judge KNAPP. Judge William L. Chambers is the commissioner and has been since this law was enacted in 1913, at a salary of $7,500, and the assistant commissioner is Mr. Whitehead Kluttz of North Carolina, whose salary is $5,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you able to say whether they have been drawing their salaries recently?

Judge KNAPP. I know they have not been because there is no appropriation from which they could be drawn since the 1st of July.

The CHAIRMAN. If we fail to appropriate now, is it your opinion that the commissioner and the assistant commissioner would still continue to feel they had salaries coming to them notwithstanding they have no service to render, and there was no appropriation from which they could be paid?

Judge KNAPP. Perhaps, I ought not to undertake to say what they feel.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion about it under the law?

Judge KNAPP. I have never examined the question, Mr. Madden, but I assumed it is well settled that the mere failure to appropriate for the salary of a Government officer does not relieve the Government from the obligation to pay that salary as long as he remains in office, and I suppose they would have a right of action in the Court of Claims.